Our GM threw unbalanced challenges at us a lot so we had to spend most of our KARMA improving rolls and could not keep long enough for advancement
Same thing happened in his WEG Star Wars game
I have been working out a rough cost I would probably charge for increasing Qualities, Powers and gaining/upgrading Abilities and Status Dice.
New d6 Quality: 1 Collection. New Qualities must be available to Character's Background or Archetype.
Existing Qualities: Equal to the current die's cost (d6 = 1, d8 = 2, d10 = 4)
New d4 Power: 2 Collections. New Powers must be available to Character's Power Source or Archtype (unless approved by Game Master if in-game event would allow access to another Power Source/Archetype; any event that could lead to a Major Rewrite of a character may justify such access).
Existing Power: Equal to the current die's cost (d4 = 2, d6 = 4, d8 = 8, d10 = 16)
New Ability: Green = 1 Collection, Yellow = 2 Collections, Red = 4 Collections. New Abilities must be available to the character's Power Source or Archtype.
Upgrading Existing Abilities (Green -> Yellow or Yellow -> Red): Equal to the Color being upgraded from (Greens cost 1 Collection to upgrade to Yellow; Yellows cost 2 Collections to upgrade to Red). Note that Upgraded Abilities still use the Power or Quality the ability previously used and additionally need to affect at least one action it could before (If it Boosted before, the upgrade needs to be able to Boost as well, but an Ability that Boosted and Hindered before only needs to Boost or Hinder as part of the upgrade, not both).
Status Dice: Green - Equal to current Die (d6 = 1, d8 = 2, d10 = 4); Yellow - Double value of current Die; Red - Triple Value of current Die
So to put this into some perspective:
It would take a Hero roughly 8 Collections (48 issues) to advance a brand new Quality (Skill) from d6 to d12... roughly the equivalent of 4 years of monthly comics or almost 1 year of weekly sessions.
It would take a Hero roughly 32 Collections (192 issues) to advance a brand new Power from d4 to d12...roughly 16 years of monthly comics or almost 4 years of weekly sessions. Additionally, since Powers are technically outside of what humans are generally capable of, they start at d4 rather than d6 that Qualities (Skills) would start at (sorry... no, you do not get to try to fly without the power). Now this may seem like a hefty cost, but the truth is that it often takes a lot for a character to gain a brand new Power they didn't have before... and this reflects how hard that will be.
Learning new Abilities can be quite difficult... especially if the Ability is fairly difficult or powerful and only marginally easier to hone/adapt a trick one already knows to work in a new way (as doing so requires one to develop the reflexes to use it in that way rather than the old way). Additionally, depending on how one chooses to adapt their existing abilities, they may loose some (but never all) of what it might have done before. While an Attack will almost always still be an Attack if upgraded, it may gain Defense or Boosting aspects... while an Ability that could Boost and/or Hinder before upgrading may focus of either one of these aspects (or in rare cases still do both). However, regardless of what the Ability upgrades into, it will still use the Power or Quality it did before.
Upgrading Status dice can be quite costly, depending on which die one is upgrading... it is easier to do more when one is fresh than it is when one is exhausted and/or in serious pain... thus increasing Green Status dice is easier than Yellow which is in turn easier than Red.
Of course, as per the established rules, one can make changes to characters when they gain Collections (without spending them). In the case of Major Rewrites after Collections have been spent on Advancement, the Collections spent will be lost as most Major Rewrites will often involve redefining the character into something new and are most likely the result of a major in-game Event (such as OblivAeon; Incusion/Secret Wars/Battle World or Crisis on Infinite Earths/New 52 type deals). In effect, Major Rewrites are recreating the Hero into something new and different (not unlike how Superman was dramatically changed in overall power levels and personality in the New 52 after Flashpoint was resolved... and the Superman there was a vast departure from what he was before Flashpoint). On a positive note though, in many comics, the previous version of a character isn't always lost, so it is possible (and advisable) to keep such characters incase there is a reason to bring them back (much like the pre-Flashpoint Superman was brought back when the New 52 Superman had been killed off). Additionally, only Collections spent on advancement before a Major Rewrite are lost... Collections that haven't been spent yet are retained and can be spent after a rewrite to advance the rewritten character (and gain some of the advancement improvements that may be appropriate).
Yes, some of this does sound extreme... such as the cost for new Powers (and having them start at d4 rather than d6), but over all, I think this will help balance the power gained with the amount of effort needed to reach such levels of power (while encouraging players to improve what they have already rather than always gaining new Qualities, Powers or Abilities).
The only issue I see with this is that not having an appropriate die for a category already defaults to d4. Personally, I wouldnât put in an option to purchase powers at lower than d6 because of that.
What exactly do you mean by "upgrading" a Green to a Yellow or Yellow to Red? That makes a move strictly worse, as now I can't use it freely until later in the fight.
I was simply thinking players would purchase new abilities for 1 Trade each; the greater potency of Yellow and Red moves is offset by the usage restrictions so they're all pretty balanced options.
I'm also curious why you have upgrading Powers be more expensive than Qualities? Mechanically it's the same boost to your expected values, and having the power at all, whether it's at d6 or d12, already gives you all the 'narrative' options.
I see arguments for and against the increased cost and lowered to d4 for powers but not on qualities. Sure you may not genetically learn how to fly but you could now have a sweet antigravity belt, or a new magical incantation, maybe your flight is a new Schbatman style glide using your cape so why canât you get. This holds true for almost every power described in the game flavor it how you will to fit the style of game you want to play.
From a mechanical point of view the d4 exists when you have to default on an ability or power for your dice pool. I think we all can agree that the athletic and mental powers exist on every hero at d4 or higher levels unless otherwise stated. So what about those do they get the d4 and d6 costs as well? If they do have to take both then you discourage those abilities in particular from ever being taken. If you donât they become the bargain this is what you should take powers.
I donât have any real answers just some food for thought.
Nope. We cannot. I have a very different conception of it.
I do NOT see it as any specific powers from the list; the rules say those begin at d6. I can see allowing a d4 if they;'ve been suppressed⌠but⌠otherwise, itâs only those kinds of things a normal human can do without special competence (which is what d6 is specified as)âŚ
Minor correction: d6 is, per various places in the rules weâve seen to date, âabove human averageâ, implying d4 is human average. (For example, see the first paragraph on page 23 of Chapter 2. Also, page 49 of Chapter 3 has âPowers rated from [d6] (above average)âŚâ and âQualities rated from [d6] (solid competency)âŚâ.)
Iâd also suggest listening to yesterdayâs Letters Page episode as they do discuss what the die sizes are supposed to represent.
For my mind, the Collections present enough in the way of advancement. I generally engage with character advancement between sessions as a way of solitary roleplaying and remaining engaged with the story between sessions. Build plans and the like represent, to me, the plans and intentions of the characters and help me define their story. The ability to adjust stats one way or another gives me plenty of room to deal with character development. Most importantly, there is no built in end state so you can keep the same character in different flavors for as long as the character is fun for you as compared to things like D&D where you will eventually run into a ceiling and it is generally felt that the most fun is had between levels 5 and 15. There's a lot ways to try new things as this game is designed and I quite like that.
Given that you roll a d4 when you have no approptiate Power or Quality, the only "benefit" to explicitly having a d4 power would be the ability to take actions that normal humans can't. As described, none of the Athletic or Intellectual Powers grant such abilities - in stark contrast to all the other listed powers. So I think it's fair to say that all heroes effectively have all Athletic and Intellectual Powers at d4.
Disagtree.
Lightning calculator isnât just doing math. itâs doing math at speeds involving savantism. Itâs a mental ability.
And as for the physicals - not having them does not add 4 to your condition monitor - but having them at a 4 would. therefore, no, they CANNOT be presumed to default to 4
Gonna point out real quick if you have no Physical Powers or Mental Qualities you get 4 for your Condition monitor. So it is like having a d4.
See pages 6/52 and 73/119 in the play test character creation chapter three for the exact way to determine condition track.
I stand corrected.
I agree with some of the others that the biggest example of "leveling up" in comics is learning to use powers in new ways. In SCRPG that woud be more abilities not raising dice values.
In the preveiw you are allowed to rewrite your character sheet after each collection or more often if needed and in the recent RPG podcast Christopher talked about changing between games so we could change out archtype and selected powers each game to look like a character with a wide array of tricks.
is Batman stealth or martial arts or freaky smart/perceptive this adventure
is Flash a Speedster or an Elemental Manipulater (velocity/momentum)
is Flash Accident Origin (chemicals + lightning bolt) or Mystic Origin (connection to the Speed Force)
it's not great and i hope for future rules options but it is a way to show an old dog learning new tricks after a fashion ( or S'sdary the bloodie )
An earlier episode saw the team in a major arguement and Superman basically stated he jumps into combat headfirst to take the big hits so his allies don't get hurt. In the Dini/Timmverse, Superman is the party Tank.
My 2 cents on this discussion: I'm happy with collections as character advancement or major rewrites if the player desires such a thing. I'm not a fan of levels or xp gains, it leads to players always wanting to level up or gain additional xp. The focus should be on the narrative and fun not on leveling up. I generally don't enjoy getting to a point where the dice are too strong in the player's favor and it requires gods to challenge them because either I feel like a jerk for giving them a challenge that could very well TPK them or they complain the opposition is always strong. I much prefer this advancement over anything I've seen thusfar.
I'm stuck in quarantine and the PDF is coming out in a couple weeks, so I'm pulling a 6-month necro.
If you were looking to trade Collections for permanent increases, which do you think is more valuable/powerful overall: a permanent die size increase on a power or quality, or a new ability?
I'm torn (especially with limited play experience). I can make a case that either is more unbalanced. I think new abilities is more desireable, but too many new abilities will clearly create its own problems.
Depends on the ability. Yellow abilities are the most valuable, Red are the most versatile. If they come from the characters' existing Power Sources and Archetypes, it's not too bad, as whatever it is would be a 2nd/3rd choice anyway. But an off-chart Yellow could potentially lead to broken combos.
I believe that picking a Green or Yellow ability from the heroes current Power Source or Archetype could work. Green abilities are what you can always use, and I agree with MindWanderer about Yellows. The second most used abilities on a hero, but their greater capability in general makes them likely the most impactful to get more of.
I disagree that they're the second-most used--or if they are, it's by a small margin. With the default scene tracker, the scene turns yellow during round 2, which means that heroes will have only 1-2 actions while it's green (and 4-6 while it's Yellow). Typically Yellow actions are more powerful, so they'll favor those. Some Green abilities will continue to see full use (Principles, Innates, and Reactions) but they'll use the rest sparingly. Unless you let players pick a third Principle, a Yellow ability will typically see the most use.
Giving this some more thought, it definitely seems Yellow abilities are most powerful. After that, though, couldn't a case be made that Green abilities are more useful than Red ones? Aside from injury, a hero only gets 2 rounds with Red, but 8 rounds with Green. Even accounting for the increased power of Red, it seems another "permanent" ability would be more powerful.