For all these, assume that Prime Warden Capain Cosmic's base power is in effect: "Power: Until the start of your next turn, whenever a Construct card is destroyed, you may either draw a card or play a card.", that a Construct "C" is destroyed, and that PWCC uses the effect of his base power to play one of the following cards.
1) Conservation of Energy reads, in part, "Destroy any number of Construct cards." Do you count C as being destroyed by CoE?
2) Contruct Cataclysm reads, in part, "Destroy all Construct cards." Do you count C as being destroyed by Construct Cataclysm?
3) Destructive Response. If C was the first Construct destroyed this turn, can Captain Cosmic immediately trigger its ability?
4) Potent Disruption. Can Captain Cosmic count C as the Construct that this card destroys?
5) Sustained Influence. Can Captain Cosmic immediately destroy this card to put C back in play?
I suspect that the answer to these is "no", but I could argue either side, and there are many slightly different cases here. So, thoughts?
I think that the answer is no. Also, you're referencing the old wording of FW CC's power (It's wrong in the spoiler, and in early reveals, so the mistake is understandable). The actual wording is "Until the start of your next turn, whenever a construct card is destroyed, you may shuffle it into your deck instead and either draw a card or play a card."
Which actually means, if I understand it correctly, that cards shuffled in to CC's deck don't count as destroyed at all, and card C is therefore definately not counted as a 'destroyed construct'.
Any card destroyed is put into the trash. Once it hits the trash THEN Captain Cosmic can draw or play. The initial construct is no longer part of any equation.
Instead is the key word in that power. You can let the card be destroyed, or you can shuffle it back into the deck for the effect of PW's power.
If you shuffle it back into the deck the card is not destroyed and no other effects can respond to its destruction, it also would not count as the first construct destroyed that turn, because it was not destroyed.
The other thing is the power's effect is optional.
so given that:
1-3) Yes, unless you choose to shuffle it into your deck, then it is not destroyed and would not count for any "When a construct is destroyed" or "number of constructs destroyed" effect.
4) You could choose C as the target of Potent, but if you choose to shuffle it into the deck you would not get to deal any damage, because there was no construct destroyed by its effect.
First, thanks for mentioning that I had obsolete text for the power. That makes a lot of these situations less likely to come up. But as phantaskippy points out, not impossible.
So, I started this thread partially because it ties into the ongoing discussion of detailed damage timing. The current state of understanding can be found here. The question here is basically, "do effects that trigger on destruction (but are not on the card being destroyed) happen before or after the destroyed card is placed in the trash?" We had previously settled on "after", but phantaskippy's answers above would seem to contradict that...
OK, after reviewing a bunch of old argument-threads, I find no compelling reason to not have all destruction-triggered effects happen before the card in question is put in the trash. I have modified the google doc appropriately.
Would that change mean that constructs shuffled into the deck with PW CC's power could trigger destruction effects?
The argument that they can is that since all the destruction effects trigger before the card enters the trash, you can choose the order in which they are applied. If you apply the shuffle trigger first then all other destruction effects would get cancelled, but if you apply the shuffle trigger last, then you could trigger any number of other destruction effects.
This wouldn't break PW CC's power, as any shuffle trigger would still cancel any other shuffle triggers, so multiple uses of the power still won't stack.
It would have the effect that effects that replace destruction would no longer cancel any desirable destruction triggers, but undesirable destruction triggers would all get cancelled.
Also, if all destructions triggers trigger before the card hits the trash, then do we need a seperate step (in the google doc) for the triggers on the card itself? I would combine that all into one step.
The counteragrgument (implied in what phantaskippy said, above) would be that the "instead" takes precedence. If you choose to shuffle "instead" than either:
A) You must make that choice first, or
B) When choosing to shuffle, all other consequences of the destruction get un-done.
(Those are logically equivalent, but I think A is easier to do logistically.)
Yes… but I, at least, am not going to make that change until there's been at least a week with no new opinions on this thread. phantaskippy is very often right, but if other playtesters chimed in with good arguments – or Christopher himself! – then I'd consider those as well.
If any effects *replaces* the destruction with some other effect (e.g. Unforgiving Wasteland, Prime Wardens Captain Cosmic), then proceed to step 21. (Skipping all other destruction-triggered effects.)