Damage Reduction Timing

When do damage reduction tokens count as entering play for the purpose of timing?

For instance, let's say we have an Argent Adept and a a Tempest. Argent Adept has his song that allows him to give two characters -1 to damage received until the start of his next turn. On his turn, he activates it. Then Tempest goes and plays his card that reduces damage of 5+ by 2. My understanding is that in this situation damages of 5 would be reduced by just 1. This is unambiguous because both the card and the token were in play before Tempest's card.

But let's say a turn goes by. Argent Adept activates the -1 damage ability again. The order of the various things entering play is Argent Adept's card -> Tempest's card -> damage reduction token. Now what happens?

Personally I'd just work it out so that the players got the best deal, regardless of order played. It's the same with that card of Legacy's, erm, Superhuman Durability I think, which is basically the same as Tempest's Shielding Winds (though I think it only works on Legacy). I can't exactly be arsed to be so finnicky as to attempt to keep track of the order in which player cards entered play (especially as I, personally, lay out my played cards in an order that makes sense rather than played order - so the Adept's instruments are always on the left, then his Harmonies, then Melodies, and finally Rhythms on the right). So if there was an incident as you describe in which Counterpoint Bulwark (the Adept's +1 damage soak song) and Shielding Winds could both come into play to reduce damage, I'd work it out to reduce as much damage as possible. Otherwise it's like penalising players for playing cards in a certain order. If you did that, you could well end up with players going "Oh no hang on, don't play that card yet - if you do it'll mess up this card that I want to play - play something else!" and generally get in the way of the fun.

Or something.

That is correct as far as I see it.

As for your other question goes, I still think the Argent Adept's card will take precedence over tempest's card regardless of how many times Argent Adept "refreshes" the power because it entered play first. Also I don't think tokens apply to the rules of entering play, only cards. Keep in mind this situtation only applys if a target took exactly 5 damage.

Personally "in my opinion", even though this might render Tempest's card unless, I think its a fair way to play because after all, this is a CO-OP game, why play a game like this if your not going to talk and plan out hero turns with each other. Its in the strategy and planning thats really makes this game fun. "no offense to the poster above me, to each his own".

I gotta side with Ameena on this. All things being equal, the favor should always fall to the heroes. I think this same discussion occurred in another thread recently. 

The question seems to be: When determining the order of affects, is the relative order of a power based on when the power was invoked or when the card that has the power was played? The answer, as I understand it (and as quiksterboy44 noted) is that the order is based on when the card entered play.

 

A corelate, which, I think, has not been ruled on, is what happens when trying to determine the order of two powers based on character cards that were in play at the beginning of the game? My rule of thumb for this is to start with the villain character card, then each of the hero character cards in play order, then with villain cards that were put in play during setup.

You nailed it.

Thanks guys. :slight_smile:

But then there are things like shielding winds and hero damage reduction. Shielding winds should reduce damage before a someone like Legacy's personal damage reduction kicks in and reduces the rest regardless of what order they were played in. I like to think of it spatially as well in these scenarios, not just who played what first. It doesn't make sense for tough skin to do anything prior to winds surrounding and protecting the hero.  I realize that is not the official ruling but it is just so illogical that I have a tough time playing that way. 

that discussion was - huge- and horribly long :P But it falls down to two camps - yes, you have to keep card order in play for your heroes, and b) the side ameena and i are on - play it in favor of the players :) 

 

ymmv

c) apply all non-conditional modifiers before conditional.  (i.e. all other increase/reductions before Shielding Winds, Superhuman Durablity, and Undaunted).

EDIT: although a) is the official ruling, c) is the way I actually play.

I almost wish the official ruling would be changed to something like only the order the villain cards were played matters.  Playing the villain turn should be a relatively delineated, robotic process, but for player turns it would make sense to allow the players some freedom to escape the order of cards played since players can think for themselves. 

I understand that ultimately I can play it however I want, but I have a pathological aversion to house rules and always play games to the letter of the rules.  I know it's weird :stuck_out_tongue: