Decks which don't work for you

Games Sentinels of the Multiverse
21

Yeah, the problem with Bunker is that the rest of his deck works fine, but his key shtick are his Modes, and they are very bad.

The best suggestion I saw was for each Mode to only block one thing, and to give one minor advantage (Turret and Recharge already have that).

Turret Mode: Play an extra power, skip draw step. Increase damage by 1.

Recharge Mode: Draw an extra card, skip play step. Reduce damage to Bunker by 1.

Upgrade Mode: Play an extra card, skip power step. When you play Upgrade Mode, search your deck for an Equipment card and put it in your hand. 

22

That sounds so much better!  I don't think I've ever played Upgrade Mode and I only play Turret Mode or Recharge Mode if I plan on staying that way for a while to just BUDDABUDDA or tank and draw for Omni-Cannon.  Which really doesn't fit with the theme, as Bunker should be switching modes fairly regularly.  Bunker has always been one of my least favorite since the first time I used him, his entire job was "skip your turn to avoid the self-destruct sequence."

23

The best way to solve modes is to change the "destroy at start of turn" to "return to your hand at start of turn".  If you want to go farther, if you return a mode, you can play a mode.

 

That way you aren't spending resources to switch modes, and you don't lose turret mode when you leave it.

 

Harpy doesn't make them work, so much as Expat and Fixer are already awesome together, and Harpy plays along with them and Setback better than Nightmist does.

24

There aren't really any hero decks that don't work for me, although there are handful that I think could use some tweaks (some on the OP side, some on the UP side).

On the villain side, I'd say Spite, Gloomy, and Deadline, although I still fight them from time to time when they come up in the randomizer. Spite just has some cards that provide the wrong incentives for the heroes and should do pretty much the opposite of what they do. Gloomy and Deadline suffer from the same problem - they were too difficult up until the last revision in testing, and the final versions with important nerfs weren't tested as much.

25

I'm very curious what the overpowered versions of Gloomweaver and Deadline used to look like.  They're definitely the ones that are too easy for what they're supposed to be, even on Ultimate.  It's probable I would have enjoyed the "broken" versions of them better.

26

Gloomy was more fun (in my opinion). I'd have to review the details, but I recall that he was basically the same villian but with everything a lot tougher. 

Deadline was less fun (in my opinion). The ongoings would do a lot more to disable the heroes ability to do anything, and thus he would more often have time to eat the environment. The ~last revision nerfed the ongoings without speeding up the clock. Still, I think Deadline needs more things the heroes have to actively respond to in his deck, like scarier targers. Plus more HP and/or a faster clock. 

FWIW, most of the time when Christopher has made a final balancing revision to a deck, it was a major improvement. Gloomy is the only counter example I can think of.  

27

Hmm, just thinking about Deadline a little...what about something to distract the heroes' attention while he commences exploding the world?

On the more invasive end of the spectrum, you could add non-catastrophe Ongoings like Miss Information's Distraction cards to his deck, or perhaps some direct attacks that cause special effects on the players ("If a hero character card was dealt damage this way, that hero's player may not play cards until the start of the Villian turn"). On the less invasive end of the spectrum, you could add this line to his rule card front side:

At the end of the Villian turn, reveal cards from the top of the Villian deck until a Device is revealed. Put it into play. Discard the other revealed cards.

Several of Deadline's Devices can be pretty scary and distracting, especially if they come out in combination - but they rarely do. This line would accelerate the Devices' appearance in play, and would also recycle them into his deck faster after they are destroyed.

28

I actually like Gloomweaver as he is.  You just can't think of him as a difficulty 3 villain.  He can be really fun to play with new people because it feels like you're doing a lot with killing zombies and cultists and stopping a demon lord without it being too hard.

29

I am with rj on the gloomweaver front. He is enjoyable for both the people who like punching demon /zombie face and sliding backwards in to a victory with an Infrared eye +Knife win.

Also I found him quite hard the first time I played him. So could be a hang up from that…

30

I only get the chance to play the PC version, so this may change how I deal with certain decks. 

 

Heroes:

-Actually, I don't think there's any hero that I can't work with. Some where a bit trickier than others, and needed a bit of training* before I got how they worked, specially Absolute Zero and Bunker, but that's all. 

 

Villains:

-The Matriarch, due to how bureaucratic the video-game gets every time you kill her birds (which are many), with all those confirmations of damage and target and redirection and more damage and confirming more targets and which effect should go first.  

...And that's it. There are some villains that I find more frustrating than others, but I have the privilege of being able to train against them with specific teams til I "get" how they work. Heck, I may even play more against them than with easier villains due to the challenge. I even like playing against Miss Information, when I feel like trying to solve her "puzzle" as efficiently as possible. 

 

Enviroments:

Now *these* can be a problem for me. It's easy for me to feel like they are "getting in the way", even more than villain cards.

-Megalopolis: Too much "you can't do stuff for the entire round" cards. Especially hostage situation.

-Rook City: A no-no for most games. Only played when I feel like the villain is too easy. 

-Mobile Platform: While others are frustrating, this one is too passive. Mostly it will just play cards to protect itself, then play minions to fix itself, then play a level to play more cards to support itself. The "plane falls everybody dies" card is pretty cool, though. 

-Magmaria: Like it was said, too little in the way of crystals, too much in the way of "vendors". It'd be nice if it had less magmarians, more crystals with interesting ways to be caught, and if it didn't destroy your equipment. 

-Atlantis: That card that won't stop playing villains cards.

 

 

* Playing a lot, reading guides and trying out the alternates. 

31

My table once got out Take Down at the same time as the Pillars in Ruins of Atlantis. It was glorious. 

32

 

Wait, really? The group was defeated or the table actually fell down? (both would be impressive)

33
So, are there other decks out that you just don't get, just don't ever seem to work well for you, that you don't enjoy playing as or against?
Hello!

This is a particular problem that me and many others have run into in various games through the years. For SotM, I have found some really easy solutions to make underwhelming decks more engaging.

One of the major tuning knobs that SotM bosses come with is their Advanced Text. Take The Ennead as a perfect example. I really enjoy the Ennead as a villain deck, but the normal mode was never a challange and pure Advanced Mode was far too challenging for my normal cassual game group. Whenever I play the Ennead these days, I always play with the first phase Advanced Text (the one that forces out all villains from the tomb) but never with the second phase Advanced Text (the one that increases all their damage). Not only does this way of playing the Ennead increase the difficulty without being overbearing, but it also forces the villain to be far more engaging thematically!

we ended up against Deadline.  Once again I was reminded of why I rarely play him
Lets apply what I did with the Ennead to Deadline. In my experience, the advanced text on the front side (where he deals 3 damage to all hero targets every time a catastrophe is destroyed) changes a lot of decision making on the front side while having direct consequences for his flip side. You dont want to keep taking that 3 damage AoE, but not doing so also makes his flip side happen far more offten, destroying far more environment cards per game, which creates tension and a stronger thematic tie in. The 2nd phase Advanced text just adds unnessesary damage and speeds up the players clock, so I tend to ignore that sides text unless we are specifically going for the full challenge, but I rarely ever play against Deadline without using the front side Advanced Text.

 

I learned this trick mainly from my days tweaking GSF. At some point I learned that the Elite Mode text for the flagships where a nessesary core thematic element that gave the flagships life and shouldn't be played without them. When looking at various villains from SotM and their advanced text, there are a lot of "easier" villains and villain decks that benefit GREATLY from playing with just one (or sometimes both) advanced texts.

 

Hello! Again!

Expat's deck has always been an enigma to some players since her release, and thats ok. Honestly, her deck (and Fixers to an extent) are products of a pretty different era of SotMs life cycle and are reflected in how they were designed and constructed. For me personally, Expat is designed to be more of a bursty, combo-centric deck, with the central combo being her unloading multiple guns+ammo in a single turn. What has always tripped new and old players alike up with her is, Expat's deck lacks internal card draw/cycle, which tends to be a vital cog when constructing combo decks. In my experience, what tends to happen is that this leads to players playing her deck with a faster tempo than she can handle (without outside help), leading to small hand sizes, few options, and smaller combos, which all lead to less player gratification (her base innate power surely doesn't help with this). 

You're milage may vary, as different players enjoy different things, but recently I've found that playing Expats deck with a slower tempo with a focus on setting up combo pieces makes her just as effective, though you will surely have a few turns a game where you do nothing but set up for those combo turns. Dark Watch Expat's innate power is pretty amazing actually when viewed through this playstyle lens. It forces the player to slow down the tempo to take full advantage of the power, which is what her deck really wants you to do anyway. For this reason, anytime I have a new player who really wants to try Expat's deck, I give them the DW version to start, as I think the innate power sets up player expectations for her playstyle better than her base innate. While her base innate is incredibly good with her actual combo (it's damage potential is far greater than the DW power with everything set up), it is objectivly harder to gain full value from without a strong grasp on how her deck functions and where she struggles. 

Combo decks are not everyones cup of tea, and hers is pretty unique when compared to other decks. Every hero deck has it's awesome combos of card plays, but none live and die by that sword in the same way Expat does.

 

I've been gone for far too long. Hey old buddy old pal, can you refresh my memory on this? (Foote needs rules reminders?! SAY IT AINT SO!)

 

 

Thoughts on Bunker:

Bunker has always been on the clunkier side of decks. I think that if GTG knows what they know now and applied recent deck design philosophies to the original base hero decks, that Bunkers would be the most effected. Skippy has detailed many ideas over the years about his Mode cards specifically (even in this very thread) that would probably work really well. But if you are like me and are content with the printed card texts and finding ways around it, there are solid upsides of base Bunker. His foam grenades are such a wonderfully overlooked card that I've come to appreciate more and more over the years, and every one of his modes are great in different team makeups (upgrade mode in a team with a lot of extra card draw is stupid good still). The great thing about Bunker is that the inherent clunkiness of his deck is addressed in every single Bunker promo in some way/shape/form. 
34

I think the original ruling before was Fixer hit one target and then a second for that same amount of damage. For example, Fixer would hit two targets for two damage with just Dual Crowbars out.  Now he hits ones target and then the second hit is based off what the final damage of the first hit then it still gets damage boosts.  For example, Fixer hits one target for two and a second for three with just Dual Crowbars out.  

35

Ok I seem to remember that now! 

36

Gloomweaver is one of those funny decks that can be really easy, but can also be real swingy.

I've had games where I felt like I was in no danger, and others that were nearly ended in one turn when Vast Following brought out two Cursed Acolytes, which can be devastating in a 5H game.

I think in a way, it captures some of how the cult is described in their appearances in The Letters Page -- a lot of the time, the heroes just deal with low-level cultists and foil their plans, but other times, the bigger names come out, the relics are brought into play early and you have a real fight on your hands.

37

To try out original Deadline (not perfect, some effects changed) the best way is to turn every instance of an (H) based number to (H).  So (H)-2 becomes (H), (H)-1 becomes (H).

 

That will take you most of the way.  Some effects that were changed made it almost unplayable.  Not as bad as the original Omnitron-IV, but really nasty.

38

Original Deadline also had inherent healing which was taken out, that made him more difficult to deal with.
As really now he has nothing much to properly handle a full on damage race against him while he’s destroying things. I’ve had games where you can basically near enough ignore his environment destruction and just beat on him and that then being pretty much all that feels like happens in that game - him doing nothing much while you just beat him up.

Because of this I’ve found the advanced rules don’t do that much to change what can feel like a bland fight still. So I’ve been considering putting more of his devices in play at the start of the game, as I’ve rarely seen them have much effect on a game. Individually they’re all easily enough dealt with and you pretty much never get them out together as the only card to speed up getting through his deck (unnatural disaster) actively goes against getting them into play.
It also makes thematic sense that he would already have these items ready and available seeing as he’s come to earth with them.
Just got to figure out what the right balance there would be if which ones/how many.

This is similar to how with Ambuscade I think he plays much better if you start with his traps already face up in the deck, because again they’re a feature of the deck I’ve rarely ever seen go off in a game otherwise.

39

So Foote I have since taken your advice and played Expat with other decks I think of as having a slower tempo and she worked wonderfully (Its normally my partner and myself playing 2 heroes each) And yes slow rolling to get a combo was fun and worked really well when an unload turned up with 4 guns in play it was a good day. I also realized I ... was misusing speed loading in the past so actually using that properly also made things better. So scratch Expat from my list of 'nah mate' heroes.  Which now means I can enjoy all of the released heroes at least a little bit. YAY

40

Yay! It’s always a little different playing a deck a different way from how one normally plays.