Definitive edition question for Akash'Butha and Ra

Games Sentinels of the Multiverse
#21

For #1, it doesn’t seem right to me for immunity to be equivalent to “attackers of this target cannot deal damage.” Are there any hero abilities in DE that specify a number of targets to deal damage to, but without a “you may?” Wording like: “Hero deals 2 targets 1 projectile damage,” such as EE Harpy’s Uncontrollable Flock. (I think Absolute Zero First Appearance, iirc?) The reason I bring up that situation is, suppose the only non-hero targets in play are Baron Blade and Mobile Defense Platform. After hitting the platform, the hero would have to choose a hero target for the next instance of damage, if your interpretation is correct, instead of picking the Baron and watching the damage fizzle. That just doesn’t seem thematically right to me.

I guess your question for #2 really boils down to: is the order static effects on all cards in the order they entered play, followed by regular effects on all cards in the order they entered play, then optional effects on all cards in the order they entered play – or is the order static, regular, and then optional effects on the first card to enter play, then static, regular, and then optional effects on the second card to enter play, and so on?

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#22

You’re right, it definitely doesn’t seem thematically right… But FA AZ’s says 2 non-hero and 2 hero, which does avoid that issue I think? And I believe many of the other multi-target attacks say “up to X targets” - key words being “up to”. This is definitely the part of this I’m the least sure of.

Interpreting phase order as looking at each card individually just doesn’t make sense, considering the Regular Action is either playing a card, using a power, or drawing a card (none for start or end). You would end up playing as many cards as you have in play.

Here’s the text I’m referring to, from page 21: “Any static action on a card that happens
in a phase, such as ‘[Flip]’ or ‘Regain 1 HP’ happens first. Then, the
regular action happens for that phase, such as playing a card during
the Play Phase. Finally, any optional extra actions granted can be
used, such as ‘You may use 1 additional power this phase.’”

#23

This is a long thread, so I’m going to go point by point.

You shuffle the trash into the deck when you need to play or draw from an empty deck. Discarding from an empty deck will fizzle. However, the shuffling is part of the draw/play instruction. You’d never shuffle the deck so that you can play a card and then not play the card.

No. If she flips during her own character card’s END PHASE, then yes. But once you’ve moved on to a different card’s END PHASE, you don’t go back.

I’ll admit this one’s unclear. It was more clear when we had the “play order, then play area order” rule. But I’m agreeing with the “mandatory, then optional” rule.

Yes, as things currently stand: you can still follow a “deal damage” instruction even if you know that ultimately it will fail. This is a change from the way the card was phrased in EE, intentionally so. I admit that this is unintuitive if he were under a “cannot deal damage” effect. Doesn’t hurt to pitch that one to Christopher.

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#24

Yeah, I definitely messed up what “regular action” meant in my post above. What I get for answering without enough familiarity of the new terms/cards!

But, since you quoted the rulebook there, I think that DOES answer the question clearly: if Self Destruct Sequence came into play before Solar Flare, Ra may choose at his start phase to put a card under the Self Destruct and skip to his power phase, which skips over Solar Flare’s destruction. Both Self Destruct and Solar Flare fall into the “static effects” category. The “optional extra actions granted” seems narrowly focused on additional card plays for the play phase, additional power uses for the power phase, and additional card draws for the draw phase.

#25

My interpretation of Static vs. Optional is what you’re forced to do vs. what you choose to do. You have to do Solar Flare’s Start Phase Effect, whichever one you choose. You can use the action on Self Destruct. Essentially, if there is a “may” within the text, it is optional.

#26
  1. You aren’t able to deal damage to an immune target. “If a target is immune to damage, or if an effect prevents damage to a target entirely, neither irreducible nor fixed damage can be dealt to that target.” (emphasis my own). Dealing and taking are not two separate things, as far as I know. This is why reductions are written “dealt to” as opposed to “taken by”.

You aren’t capable to deal damage to an immune target, but you could still try.
If I have 2 heroes tied for highest HP and one of them is immune.
A card saying : “This deals 5 damage to the hero target with highest HP” allows me to choose the invulnerable hero ?

Ditto with FA Absolute Zero : He can target a immune to damage hero with his power to avoid damaging this allies too much ?

I guess the rules you point is just that a target immune to damage receive no damage instead of receiving them. No normal damage, nor irreducible damage nor fixed damage.

I am impatient to get that Letters Page episode. :slight_smile.

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#27

Lost a bit in here with my internet being wonky, but since you are not required to skip for Self-Destruct, it would not be a static effect.

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#28

I don’t think “static” means “not optional.” The way I interpret the rulebook phrasing is:

  1. First you do any effects printed on cards in play that trigger during this phase, on the order that cards entered play.
  2. Then you do the regular action for this phase (play, power, or draw).
  3. Then you do any additional copies of the regular action that you have been granted, like how Tachyon’s HUD Goggles say you may “play 1 additional card.”

But it does seem like the rulebook introduced some terms and phrases that raise confusing interpretations (like why use the word “static” or what do “optional” and “additional” mean). In fact, this whole discussion has me wondering: why don’t HUD Goggles just say, “PLAY PHASE: You may play 1 card now?” The general rule could have just been that you do effects on cards in play, then the regular action.

#29

We actually tried that in early playtesting. It felt bad because it meant that if you played HUD goggles or Pushing the Limits you didn’t get the extra play for an entire round.

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#30

I do wish they used something like “required” or “forced” rather than “static”. I also wish a different example was provided for an optional action, but the most prevalent ones are extra plays/powers/draws. But I feel like it would have been worded differently if that only accounted for doing the regular action again. The way it’s worded also includes stuff like AZ’s new item card, which allows him to draw a card or use a power in the end phase. I’d consider that an optional additional action.

Optional because you can choose whether or not to do it. Additional because it is in addition to the regular action of the phase.

#31

The reason it’s not “required” is because the original question was in respect to Omnitron. In its case, there’s no “required” or “optional” instructions, it’s just a thing that always happens.

#32

Okay, but who does that thing? Does the card flip itself, or am I “required” to flip it every turn? Maybe “mandatory” would be a better word? Something that, if the static/regular/optional interaction is correct, highlights that you have to do the “static” actions and can do that optional actions. As Trajector pointed out, “static” doesn’t entirely carry that meaning.

#33

Well, I think that it is “not optional” because there are a lot of non-optional effects, specifically at the Start of Turn phase.

Captain Cosmic’s Vitality Conduit states that: That Hero (who you played this next to) gains 2 hp. This isn’t an optional effect, you don’t choose to gain hp, you simply do.

Meanwhile, Tiaka Defender says that at the start phase you “destroy this card” again, non-optional.

The tricky thing is that there are non-optional cards that give a choice. For example from Haka again, Haka of Frenzy gives you the choice to discard cards, but it doesn’t give you a choice in whether or not the card is destroyed. That effect MUST happen. And you don’t even get a choice in the dealing of the damage, again, Haka does attack X+1 Targets for 3 irreducible damage. The only “option” is how many cards to discard.

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#34

What I meant was, if by “static actions” they meant required/mandatory/non-optional actions, in contrast to the “optional extra” actions that come last in the phase order, they would have used a different word than “static” to describe them. I understand @skywhale’s interpretation of the phase order to be that, because the rulebook uses the word “optional” in describing the 3rd part of the phase order, then any card effects that give the player an option or choice must fall into that category and therefore any other card effects (that do not give players a choice) must occur in the 1st part of the phase order. My objection to that interpretation is that “static” and “optional” aren’t antonyms and so I don’t think that was the distinction the rulebook was trying to create. Also, gameplay-wise, I don’t think they meant for us to go along looking at cards in the order they entered play, parsing the wording for anything that doesn’t present players with a choice, and then do it again parsing for anything that says “may” or does present a choice. I think “static action” just meant “text effects out there on cards in play that tell players to do a thing,” including Omnitron, hakas, Vitality Conduits, and the Self-Destruct Sequence. But they did want to carve out the “do additional X” effects for the phase, such as HUD Goggles or Utility Belt, as an exception and put them last in the phase order. @Dandolo gave us the reason why (and it’s cool to see how that evolved!)

As @skywhale pointed out, the “optional extra” action part of the phase order does seem to include some effects that aren’t doing the same action as normally happens in that phase, which suggests that we definitely do need to get some clarification on what exactly the terms “static” and “optional extra” mean in the context of this game in order to have a final answer. This could only get worse as more expansions come out, and players discover more interactions. Uh oh, it’s getting fiddly again!

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#35

Yeah, the fiddliness of this is why my initial interpretation was just play order. It allows a few exploits, but it seems much easier and smoother than the alternative

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#36

Totally agree-- otherwise you have to do multiple passes of each card looking for phase-appropriate text and categorizing them by optionality (?)

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