According to the FAQ for the App, "targets remain in play during their own destruction" (bold in the original). This confirms something that we have suspected for a while, in the continual evolution of the Damage Dealing Spreadsheet. So I have gone ahead and combined what were, for a while, two separate steps: "on destruction" effects on the defender, and non-defender "on destruction" effects.
I have a question about an edge case in the comments, that the grognards here might be able to help with:
"Some side effects may lead to the defender being destroyed "again" during this step. Note that a defender which is double-destroyed in this fashion does not trigger its OWN "when this card is destroyed" effects a second time."
Does this mean that OTHER card destruction triggers *can* happen a second time? It seems to, but that may just be an accidental wording, from back when there were two separate steps. It doesn't make intuitive sense to me that you could double-destroy, but only if the effect is on a different card.
Can someone (who has more brain than I have at the moment) please come up with some specific cases where this could really happen, so that we can discuss it in concrete terms? Or links to prior relevant discussion/rulings? Thanks.
Christopher has said before that cards can’t be destroyed twice. For example, if something destroys Explosive Wagon, and the Wagon kills Bee Bot, you can’t destroy the Wagon again. Not only for it’s effect, but also for others. Dominion won’t draw twice from that either.
Also, cards remaining in play was’t “suspected” before, it was known.
Could (a perverse player's) Bee Bot choose the Explosives Wagon to be destroyed? I understand that nothing would be triggered by that, but are you allowed to have Bee Bot try to do it?
[Pedantic digression: "Known" implies a binary nature of knowledge, where I prefer to view it as a sliding scale of certainty. Given how fluid the rulings on edge cases are, I don't like to use binary words like "known" until some time has passed without Christopher changing his mind, or the collective forum-ites coming up with very strong reasons why he *should* do so (even if he doen't :-). Now, not only has time passed, but someone close to Christopher has stated it directly in print, not just in a comment thread, and in bold at that. *That* seems high enough to pass the "known" bar -- for me, at any rate.]
Hm...
I just thought of a different, but related question.
What happens if Fixed Point is played during the "Destroyed but still in play" window?
For example:
Parse has Buffer Overflow out
Akash'bhuta plays Primeveal Eruption, which Parse cancels with Buffer Overflow
When Buffer Overflow is destroyed, it sticks around until Parse draws a card and Akash'bhuta plays the top card of her deck. She plays Disrupt the Field, which destroys all Environment cards (none), plays a Villain card (Mountinous Carapace), and plays an Environment card (Fixed Point).
Now, Buffer Overflow tries to go to the trash. Does it suceed? On the one hand, it was destroyed before Fixed Point entered play. On the other hand, indestrubility prevents cards from leaving play, not cards from being destroyed.
I have asked this question, and I am waiting for the answer.
I would argue that Buffer Overflow would not go to to the trash in that example.
It is still in play, and it cannot leave play.
That is an easy answer.
Also you can target Explosives Wagon a second time for destruction, it just doesn't do anything, because the destruction process is already underway, and there is no category for things being double-destroyed, or super-destroyed.
OK, how about my version then:
Sonic Mine is destroyed, hits Dynamic Siphon first, allows RC Wraith to use a power, puts Fixed Point into play. What happens? Does Sonic Mine keep doing damage? Does it stay out and trigger again when Fixed Point leaves?
It is easy. The problem for me is that an already-destroyed-but-waiting-to-finish-triggering card feels very much like a One-Shot to me, in that it really shouldn't be in play, but it's considered in play because that's how things resolve in SotM. And if it behaves like a One-Shot, it might be able to fit through the same loophole that One-Shots use to escape Fixed Point.
It would stop because the process of being destroyed is no longer possible.
But, I don't think that's true (not the ruling, the explanation). The card is destroyed, no questions there, it stays in play while performing it's effect. Nothing says that it is "still being destroyed." Case in point, you can draw from Ammo Drop before triigering Sonic Mine, which means it already was completely destroyed. And if it stays in play, and gets destroyed again, you can draw from Ammo Drop again.
But one-shots don't act when they are in the process of leaving play.
Destruction works as a process, something is selected for destruction, then you go through teh steps required by self-destruction text, then you finish the destruction. The destruction can be cancelled mid destruction, just like Dynamic Syphon on Omnitron-X putting Throat Jab into play can cancel a damage dealing process right in the middle.
The remaining steps fail because the effect is being prevented.
Think like the app, Sonic Mine goes off hits syphon, Wraith puts Fixed point into play and a message pops up
Sonic mine cannot be destroyed due to Fixed Point's effect.Then you go on with play. If not healed Sonic Mine will start all over again when Fixed Point leaves play.
Except that it was already destroyed to trigger things like Ammo Drop.
That may change when Fixed Point comes into the game.
I don't know.
The ruling we have is cards stay in play during their destruction, not after it.
Actually, that's not true at all. The ruling is that if cards are destroyed, they stay in play (not delaying the destruction) until their card effects are resolved.
Sonic Mine would keep dealing damage (as its destruction was already triggerd and the effect already in proccess of resolving)
Fixed Point enters play.
Sonic Mine keeps resolving its damage. I don't see why Fixed Point would interupt an effect already in the proccess of resolving.
Sonic Mine would stay in play while Fixed Point is in play, and you would track it's negative HP.
If Sonic Mine still has 0 or fewer HP when Fixed Point leaves play, Sonic Mine also leaves play. It would not resolve its destruction effect twice.
If Sonic Mine has more than 0 HP, it would stay in play and be eligable to be destroyed again.
What am I missing?
The next step, which I am loathe to bring up, but maybe I will. Give me a few minutes to see if I can explain it clearly.
I thought we had an official ruling that the "When a target is destroyed" card effects happen after the card leaves play, while "When this card is destroyed" happen while it is in play.
I may be wrong about that though, I can't find it.
If that order is reversed then this is not at all simple and is ridiculously confusing.
It's not confusing.
Under normal circumstances, destruction of a card immediatly sends it to the trash. Thats why "When a target is destroyed" effects after the target is already gone.
"When this card is destroyed" effects must remain in play to resolve its text (you can't resolve an effect from the trash). As soon as the effect is resolve, it too would immediatly be sent to the trash.
I don't see how these contradict one another at all
This was officially clarified for the App (sorry if I made it sound like it was known all along).
All on destruction effects happen at the same time, and you can choose the order. The effect on the card itself does not have to happen first.
However, you cannot stop the cards own effect from happening. So, If Haka tries to eat the Sonic Mine, he can put it under Savage Mana first, but that (i.e. the lack of text) cannot stop the card from triggering. The way the App handles this is to put it in a different "zone" to trigger, then puts in under Sonic Mine.