Fanatic and Apostate First Appearances speculation

Games Sentinels of the Multiverse
1

So, I've searched around on this, and found bits and pieces of speculation on this, but can't find anything definitive. Has anyone come up with a generally-accepted theory on the Fanatic/Apostate First Appearance quandary?

Just to be clear, I'm talking about the following:

Apostate's First Appearance is in Fanatic #25.

Fanatic's First Appearance is in Mystery Comics #368.

Apostate has quotes on Holy Nova, Tome of the Unknowable, Final Absolution and Reactive Plating from Mystery Comics #367, 368, 369 and 370, respectively. The art from several of these issues appears to show a conflict with Fanatic and Apostate.

Fanatic is quoted on Brutal Censure, Sacrosanct Martyr, Illusory Demon, and Aegis of Resurrection in Fanatic #2, 14 (twice), and 19, respectively. The art from several of these issues appears to show a conflict with Fanatic and Apostate.

Apostate also is quoted on Condemnation, Corrupted Effigy, Remorseless Provocation and Gauntlet of Perdition in Fanatic #25 (twice) and 27 (twice).

We also know that "After Fanatic was confronted by the deceiver, Apostate, she had to regroup. She spent three entire days sequestered in the bell tower of a monastery in prayer and meditation, not stopping to eat or sleep. Finally, she emerged from her requiescence, refreshed in the knowledge of her steadfast righteousness." (Redeemer Fanatic section).

Now, there's several little sub-problems in here as well, and I'll list those, too, but the main problem is:

How does Fanatic have a first appearance in Mystery Comics #368, which by all appearances seems to be part of a "confrontation" with Apostate, given the frequency of Apostate quotes and some art (though not Smite the Transgressor, which is stated as being from a different issue), but then Apostate does not have a first appearance until Fanatic #25, which, theoretically, must be after Mystery Comics #368, since it is Fanatic's eponymous book?

Here's a couple of theories:

1. (The thought behind this first sentence is not mine, though I couldn't easily put my finger on it to attribute it) Apostate is quoted in MC 367, 368, 369 and 370, but doesn't actually "appear" in any of these. (I think this starts to be me from here on) What this ACTUALLY is is Fanatic starting to deal with some of the relics and demons associated with Apostate, but hasn't actually run into Apostate yet. Apostate is only sort of a mysterious voice-over at this point, almost like a narrator. This could, theoretically, appear to be its own story arc, and could happen substantially previous to the events of even Fanatic #1, but the "mysterious voice" isn't resolved until Fanatic #25.

2. The first 24 issues or so of Fanatic's eponymous book tell the story of the origin of Fanatic. Her young life, etc. Therefore, while Helena appears, Fanatic does not appear until she officially takes up the mantle in MC #368, which immediately crosses over into her book on issue #25.

And the second problem is that I don't actually like either of these. Here's why:

1. I find this one to be hard to believe from a business perspective. With the voice-over of Apostate, you are clearly setting up that this story is not done - there's the unexplained outside agency left lurking. However, assuming standard publication rates, readers are expected to hang around for the payoff of the story for at least two years in another book. Also, this requires that you have the idea for a nemesis for Fanatic, but decide to hold back from giving it to her during the period when she most needs to grab excitement and readers - when her title is first starting up. It is possible that there have been little teasers from Apostate occurring in Fanatic #1-24, or Fanatic trying to figure out who the agency was behind the scenes, but there is no evidence of this on the cards.

2. You give Fanatic her own book, named after her. Fine. You have it not start out with the named character actually appearing in it. A bit avant-garde, but also fine. You then have the payoff of the first appearance of the Fanatic in another book? Not fine. Completely unbelievable. All of these people are reading along, waiting for poor little Helena to really do something fanatical to justify the title, and then it happens in Mystery Comics? I just have trouble believing it, and I thought it up! ;P

So, who has a theory?

Bests,

BLM

P.S. Mini-problems

1. Any theory must explain the fact that Redeemer Fanatic's bio seems to imply that the confrontation with Apostate, triggering the morph into Redeemer Fanatic, was her first one. 

2. The theory must explain that Apostate is quoted before Fanatic's first appearance, but his first appearance is in Fanatic's book, which is generally assumed to be later.

 

2

Is there place in this thread for the people that thinks they just messed up some details?

No?

Ok. My theory then would be that the 25 issues of Fanatic happened between MC 368 and 369, taking as inspiration the weird timelines comics have been published in real life. For a more concrete example, instead of a whole year of Age of Apocalipsis, it was Age of Fanatic and the Fanatic comic 'replaced' MC for a year.

3

Not about Fanatic, but here are some of Christopher’s thoughts on first appearances.

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/10405#comment-10405

4

To your issue #1, I've wanted to speculate this for quite some time (especially as to the base game), but have just been too chicken. So, there's certainly a place for it in a thread I started :wink:

To your theory, I actually like it quite a lot. You could see MC having "Fanatic" as a banner above it, and it eventually morphing into the title, then back. However, I do think that if this happened, you would see Mystery Comics 368, Fanatic 369, Fanatic 370 … I don't think that they would stop MC, reset the numbering and change the title, and then come back to 369. It's possible, though!

It's too bad, too, because I really liked the theory.

5

I always thought of Mystery Comics as the equivalent of Weird Mistery Tales and other comics of the kind - horror/crime comics from the time before the rebirth of interest for super-heroes.

In the history of Comics, many super-heroes (and villains) appeared first in the pages of these kind of Comics, when the craze came back, as "one-shot" characters, before gaining their own comics and story line later, when the audience reacted favorably.

My guess is that Fanatic and Apostate were first part of some kind of horror story in MC.

Then "later" the character was developed has a super-hero with her own storyline and comic, and Apostate as her big bad.

There are many explanations possible. Maybe (it happened in true comics) a one-shot story in MC was later retconned and rewritten in a different way as an adventure in Fanatic's comic.  Maybe Fanatic's comics were published later, but began the story before the events of MC. Maybe Apostate was not really a "character", or at least a "villain" in the super heroic sens of the term, in MC, but just a narrator of dark stories - or the main character of the Fanatic story.

Maybe the Fanatic/Apostate conforntation was meant to be a one-shot mistery tale at first - but then inspired an author. Like what happened for Man-Thing and other monsters-turned-recurring characters.

"First Appearance" may very well mean "as a super-villain". If I remember correctly, there are demon-like characters in Marvel and DC who first were characters in horror stories, before being used a villains in later super-hero comics, with a few modifications.

Like, for instance, it seems Chrono Ranger was first a character in Western stories comic books before entering horror stories and finally becoming a recurrent super-hero in the SH comics :D

And, yes, I think about SotM as if the publication history wasn't fictional - I am convinced Christopher and Adam even thought about explaining some events in the stories and changes in characters as a change of the writer or artist working on the book at the time :D

6

Apostate is a deceiver.

I suspect he was around but under very different appearance (personality not necessarily look).

I suspect Fanatic #25 is where he is revealed to be the deceiver he is.

 

Imagine if instead of Operative leaving Mr. Fixer, she finds out it was Slim, her mentor, who sold out her friends to their death.  I think that is where Fanatic is coming from.  She finds out that this person who knows what she is and whom she trusts is really evil.

7

These are all good questions. I will say that there is another sorta similar situation where Visionary has a quote in one comic directly before her first apperance. So she has a quote box in one comic, and in the very next one you see her for the first time and that is attributed to her first apperance.

With that said, it's very possible that we as consumers of the comics see text bubbles of apostate speaking but do not actually see him until Fanatic 25. 

I doubt there are 24 whole issues of "Fanatic" that just detail backstory until the point she gains her armor and sword. That theory seems highly unlikely. 

Here is how it went down.

  • Fanatic is first revealed in Mystery Comics where this whole storyline begins. The character is introduced at the begining of her major story arc. Apostate is quoted a lot through this time but is never seen, a mystery voice from behind the curtain. Mystery Comics wouldnt be named that if there were not mysteries to solve. Fanatic then proceedes to gets her own book which continues the storyline setup in Mystery Comics up until Fanatic 25 where Apostate, her nemesis, is finally revealed on the pages and they meet face to face for the first time. Fanatic 25-29 likely detail their major encounter together into the aftermath. Fanatic 30 is the first apperance of Redeemer Fanatic which follows their first encounter.

Where do you get the idea that there must be 2 years between Mystery Comic 368 amd Fanatic 25? You cant assume standard publication rates because different comics come out at different rates and are not always consistent even within those rates for Sentinels Comics.

Also, it makes perfect sense to me that when you introduce a new character, you would do it in a comic that already has a fan base. So you introduce Fanatic and her whole mystery for a few issues in Mystery Comics until you give her her own book to continue that story after you have grabbed initial readers. Keep in mind this is also a fictional comic and "business sense" doesn't hold much weight to shoot down theories. Even so, in this case I feel like the timeline does make business sense regardless.

8

@TheSoundOfTrees and @phantaskippy

One of the difficulties in this is that we have only a loose idea of what "First Appearance" means. For some, it includes quotes, for some it includes the very first time that entity is physically depicted in comics, whether as their non-heroic/non-villain self or not. We'll never know for sure. I think that both of your theories are good, and that they boil down to the same essential theory - Apostate shows up in MC, but not as Apostate - as some nameless Fallen Angel, later retconned to be Apostate (TheSoundOfTrees) or in personality disguise/as some other entity (phantaskippy).

In the first case, at least on my definition of "first appearance", I'd think that a retcon of the fallen angel to be Apostate would cause a retcon of the First Appearance as well. In the second case ... well ... I'm not sure. I think if Bob the Plumber shows up, and seems to be a good guy, but later turns out to be Bob the Plumber, a bad guy, then I think when he first showed up was his First Appearance, even if good. However, if Bob the Plumber shows up and seems to be a good guy, and turns out to be Apostate, with wings and all kinds of bad things, and absolutely no plumbing skill whatsoever, I think that there's a real argument that the second one is the true First Appearance of Apostate, even though he was technically appearing when Bob the Plumber did, too.

I can't remember how nefarious the quotes of Apostate are from the MC issues. If they are pretty neutral, I'd think that this is a reasonable answer - he's "there", but it's not really "him", yet. It later on gets revealed to have been him, so when the issues are quoted, it's Apostate saying it, though he didn't appear as himself yet.

Interesting.

BLM

9

This is false. First Appearance is never just the firs ttime you see a quote from a character. Go back to Visionary for this. She is quoted in an anual before her first apperance. They either need to be physically seen, or have the quote specifically attributed to them.

Maybe you saw him in disguise. Maybe not. The only thing we know is that Apostate is seen speaking in text bubbles before we know its Apostate or before we actually see him.

10

I think in many of its points, your theory and (partially) my theory #1 are pretty close. I agree with you entirely that my theory #2 isn't a super likely theory - I included it only because it was a possible theory, in the interests of completeness.

While it is true that different comics come out at different rates, comics that come out more frequently than once per month are pretty unusual. I've been out of the game for a bit, but the last weekly comic I can remember was "52", which was in part so named specifically because it is so unusual for a comic to come out all 52 weeks of one year.  While we do know that one of the "rules" of the game is that dif ferent comics can have different publication rates, I would expect that if this whole thing was truly thought out from the beginning (which is one of the things that we have always been given to believe), then I expect a reasonable explanation for why Fanatic would be published so much more frequently than the "industry-standard" normal publication rate (which seems pretty Sentinel Comics standard, too, if its been publishing since WWII, and the high issue numbers are in the 600s-700s). Otherwise different publication rates is just a deus ex machina that fixes a story paying off 24 issues after it starts, with substantial stuff left unresolved (the appearance of Apostate), and seemingly nothing related in-between. 

Even if Fanatic is a weekly comic, you have her first appearance in MC 368, and then 24 issues later (six months), you finally have the payoff of the "man in the shadows" from MC 367-368. It's possible, but seems like a long time to wait. Again, I'm not saying that this theory is definitely wrong because if this - I think it's the best theory going - I'm just saying it's got enough that doesn't feel quite right that it's possible that it's wrong. 

I completely agree with your reading of events from Fanatic 25 up through Fanatic 30, and think that it makes total sense. I am leaning very strongly towards whatever happens in MC not being a physical confrontation directly between Apostate and Fanatic. To make a quick left turn, in Sunrise, the "sets" of Citizens all have quotes/arts in the same issue of Sunrise together. I suspect that this is done to tell us the story that our heroes are meeting/fighting the "sets" of Citizens in waves up to fighting the big bad - Citizen Dawn. I think that the same thing may be happening here.  We see a bunch of relics and demons - this may be the "softening up" of Fanatic.

That said, however, there is the problem that Apostate does appear personally in several arts in MC, other than just Smite the Transgressor, which has been explicitly disavowed. He also physically appears on Fallen Angel (369), Reactive Plating (370) and Karmic Retribution (370). That's a lot of "oh, that's just art not matching up" - showing up on three cards that quote two issues. If you really want Apostate to not show up in MC, why didn't >G just make the quotes reference Fanatic issues? I do feel a bit like it strains the theory of "he doesn't really show up in MC" to have that many art appearances in two consecutive books.

I still think its the best theory we have going - it just has too much against it for me to feel certain it's right. 

11

Quotes dont always match art. You are falling into the trap of "oh well they must". I told you before in other threads that this will be a mjor issue for you and that you can't work off the base assumption that they match until proven otherwise. This is exactly why. The argument that "its too many to be a coincidence" doesn't hold either, because you then work on the assumption that most art matches flavor text, and even that is not proven to be true anywhere. 

He doesn't have art apperances in MC. Thats what logic is telling you. His first apperance is explicitly in Fanatic 25. You are trying to fit a square peg in a round hole by trying to shoehorn in matching art/flavor texts. 

12

Also note that changes to a character results in a new first appearance issue. Fanatic herself is a good example, Fanatic and Redeemer Fanatic are the same person, technically they should have the same first appearance issue. The only changes I can see are her costume and outlook on life.
 

Something major may have changed between the Apostate pre Fanatic #25 and the Apostate revealed in that issue.

13

I'm all done with the art argument. Here's the link to where Christopher says the following, it's post #21 in the thread:

"Oh! Oh oh oh! I am terribly sorry for not making this clear earlier!

(this is just going to make a bit of a mess of things...)

The art and the flavor text do not always match up. Most of the time they do, but sometimes the panel depicted is not from the same comic as the quote. This was something we did on purpose for Reasons, but I realize has potentially caused you some headaches. Sorry!"

Emphasis is mine.

My assumption that, as you put it, " most  art matches flavor text" is because  the inventor of the game literally said that. I understand that you believe differently, but I'm gonna believe him. I agree with you that one art with one quote means nothing. Three arts with three issue references from three different decks with a base rule of "Most of the time they do" means substantially more than nothing to me.

Bests,

BLM

14

The assumption has clearly only caused you more problems than it has solved. Ask yourself how much good it is actually doing you.

15

I will point out that Christopher's comment was made prior to the Enhanced Edition. Art changed so the statement may not be as true now as it was then.

16

Another thoery Apostate's bio indicates that he was not referred to as Apostate until he started his "Take on the world" plot against multiple heroes. Before that he may have just been known as Bezaliel, and his Apostate first appearance is when he was first referred to by that name.

Another example to my previous point, that costume/personality changes get new first appearances, is Wraith vs Rook City Wraith, different first appearances but really what is the difference between the two?

17

Condescension much! Love it!

18

Condenscension? I don't think so. I find it a fair question to ask.

19

I really like phanatskippy's speculation about Apostate the Deceiver. One way or another, I think the most plausible explanation is that the name/persona Apostate was what first appeared in Fanatic #25.

20

This with cnranger's point is, I think, pretty good stuff. This could even explain if "Apostate" physically showed up as himself in MC - he was just Bezaliel at that point.

So, here's how it would map out:

Mystery Comics 367-370 - Story arc of Fanatic's first appearance. She is dealing with issues surrounding evil relics and demons. She maybe meets or maybe is even aided by a fallen angel named Bezaliel. There's a couple of ways to interpret the Fallen Angel art, but it does look like Apostate might be holding Absolution. I've always assumed he stole it from her, but it could be that he was "helping", and she gave it to him for some reason. There are certainly plenty of examples of stories where fallen angels convinced mortals that God had wrongly cast them down, and got traction. This could be a similar thing. If so, he certainly wouldn't reveal himself as Apostate at this point. Even FURTHER, the story line could have really stopped here. Bad was vanquished, with the (always hoping otherwise) help of Bezaliel. There's nothing to pay off.

Fanatic 25-29 - The former ally flips and either is or turns into Apostate. Then, as Foote points out, this is the actual showdown between Fanatic and Apostate, and aftermath.

BLM

P.S. Hmm. After rereading Apostate's bio, it sure feels like, though she first met him as Bezaliel, that first interaction was a) a fight and b) was what caused the "shaking" of Fanatic. I still like him showing up in MC, and showing up as Bezaliel, but I think that I took it too far above with him actually interacting with Fanatic.

P.P.S. Actually, thinking even MORE on this, given that his bio clearly says that he was Bezaliel when they first interacted, what is wrong with MC 367-370 being that first interaction? Then the Fanatic book is the story of her dealing with that (and maybe back in time a bit), with Fanatic 25 being the story of the "The heroes of the world joined forces to face him, calling him "Apostate", and he proved a terrible threat to the very existence of mankind." (Apostate bio). That would explain him actually appearing in MC, his first interactin with Fanatic being a fight, and the gap between Fanatic 1 and 25, when "Apostate" first appears.