Fanatic Guide

Other Games SotM Game Engine
21

I'm a big fan of Reedemer. She can get her sword pretty fast which gives her better damage than her base power with no increase, equal to her base power at 1 increase, and only falls behind at 2 or more increases. Plus she also finds her breastplates and Wrath faster. Wrath also hits for slightly more.

 

Redeemer also combined with Dauntless to make her pretty hard to kill. The biggest downside I can think of is not having garunteed damage each turn and the one card that has her draw until she has 6 gets a lot worse. 

 

But I think there is a reason she has a slightly higher win% than her basic version and the trade off is worth it unless the team is already really lacking in damage or built around damage increase. 

22

Elemental Storms:   Undaunted is no doubt useful against them, so long as you aren't on The Ennead in Force, advanced mode.   If you're not playing Advanced mode, chances are you'll never even see The Ennead in Force side.   However if you are,  then that means that Undaunted can protect you from elemental storms for exactly 3 turns if you play it immidiately  (assuming 4 player game), and possbily less if they play Rise to Power or Taste of Immortality.   After that point it is useless against the Ennead.

 

Infections from plague rat increase damage dealt by infected heroes by 1 if on advanced mode,  which means Undaunted is no help against them.  Besides, if you're fighting plauge rat and you're first to be infected (as you should)  then all your 1 shots are at a massive damage boost,  play them instead of Undaunted.

 

Pike Industrial Complex is indeed a good place to play Undaunted because of the supercooled trisolvent vats.  I did mention this in the guide.

23

Don't both Plague Rat and the Ennead have a few big hit one shots that Undauted can take a nice chunk out of?

24

The Ennead's biggest hit is Blast of Flame,  which deals H-1 damage.   If advanced, 4player game and in the Ennead in Force, with no other modifiers, you are at 4 damage, just shy of activating Undaunted.   Targets highest HP character.

 

Plague Rat does have some big hits.   Tooth and Claw, which targets the highest with a 5 damage hit (+1 if advanced), and Noxious Bite which targets the lowest with a H damage hit (+1 if advanced).   3 copies of each.   Thing is that it sort of a crapshoot if you're going to be hit with either of these attacks.    6/25 chance for him to play one of those cards in the first place, and you'd have to have Undaunted out and be either the highest hp for Tooth and Claw, or the Lowest hp for Noxious Bite in order to use it.  

25

Also keep in mind that any global DR that Fanatic can get to help reduce those instances of increased damage (like with the Advanced mode examples) makes undaunted very viable again.

26

Global damage amp also pushes more stuff into Undaunted's range as well. 

27

I wouldn't suggest burning Fanatic against high health heroes, or heroes that don't take damage until they flip, but when you have a medium to low health Villain, burning them with Fanatic is awesome.

It isn't a safer, or more tactically sound strategy, but it can be a lot of fun.  If she had more copies of retribution in her deck it could be a much more normal strategy, instead of a niche.  Like I said if you don't get it quick you can't really pull it off, if you do get Retribution quick you can go for it.

You do get dealt damage normally, but Martyr and your other cards that cost HP can help you control the exact amount to set up for max Retribution.

It is a risky way to play her, and you will die.  Fortunately Fanatic has Aegis, and if that fails her incap's are pretty good.

You obviouily don't want to throw HP at anyone but the main target, and not if your crazy kamikazee death doesn't set your team up to win right after.

 

The reason I posted about it is it seems everyone writes off that strategy as being bad, and it doesn't get used even when it would pretty much gaurantee victory.  You can wait to get beat down, but that means your allies are beaten down too.  With Divine Focus, Chastise, Zealous Offense and Sacrifice Fanatic can burn her own HP while her allies remain higher, and deal a lot of damage to the villain the whole while.

Without Retribution you lose that huge chunk of damage at the end, and that really makes this playstyle a bad idea, so without Retribution you shouldn't even consider it.

But if players get the opportunity they should try it, it is fun and a very different style of Fanatic that most overlook. because it seems bad, but anything that results in a win is good, even if it is unconventional and normally foolish.

28

Foote:  Did you mean global damage increase?   Only non-environement global DR I can think of is Counterpoint Bulwark.   Which is great, if AA is on your team.

 

brytehfryguy:      All the "big" attacks that are in the 5+ damage (or 4+ damage if you have a global damage buff) range almost always target a single hero, usually the one with the highest hp.   If that isn't Fanatic,  then Undaunted is no good for you, (from the perspective of the big attack portion).   I know it's not a perfect number,  but you can figure each time one of those attacks hits the table, there is a 1/H chance of it targeting Fanatic.   So if H=4,  about a 25% chance to get to use Undaunted per "big" attack.  

 

Plague rat -who is a villain with a lot of "big" attacks- has 6 "big" attacks in his deck, say he plays all 6 of them during the course of the game  -a bit unlikely.   You get to use your Undaunted on average about 1-2 times, saving you from 2-4 points of damage over the course of the whole game.   And that is assuming you played Undaunted before any of those "big" attacks hit the field.       It's not worth your card play unless you had basically nothing else even remotely decent in your hand.

 

phantaskippy:   This is a strategy guide.    I don't make any claims on how to play her how she is "fun" or "interesting",  this is all about optimiziation.   From an optimization standpoint, I have to approach the guide based on what is likely to happen,  which means you probably don't have Wrathful Retribution until late in the game, if at all.  If you prefer to play her differently for fun,   I completely respect that...  however, it is not optimal.  

29

I would think it's a bit higher than 25% since she starts off with more health than the majority of other heroes not to mention having incidental heals built into a few of her cards. Even more so with Reedemer.

30

Please note that it is your opinion that is not optimal. Some players may find that it is the optimal way to play Fanatic. Some players even find it optimal to play all heroes that way. It's not very polite to tell people their way of playing a hero is not the optimal way, it is all a matter of opinion.

31

ronway:  Frankly, no it isn't, and no, it isn't.   

 

but first, brytehfryguy:  Yes, you're right.  As I said when I mentioned it the first time, it's not perfectly accureate.   But it's not far off either, as heroes tend to even out in HP after a few turns.   And for the first villain turn when her hp is likely higher than most other heroes, she doesn't have Undaunted on the field to use anyway.    Could it be slightly higher than 25%?  Sure.   But not significantly.

 

It's not rude to tell somebody their playstyle is not the optimal way to make use of a particular hero.   What is and isn't optimal is not a matter of opinion.    There are ways of playing heroes that are less effective than other methods.   Some players may think that it is the optimal way to play fanatic to burn your health down as fast as possible,  but this ends up hurting you more than it helps.    As the author of a strategy guide, I would be remiss if I did not warn players about this trap that is very easy to fall into, as it feels very natural.

 

I'm willing to bet I've played more games as Fanatic than anybody here on the forum save for the designers.  I do know what I'm talking about.   And yes,  I have actually tried burning down my HP and playing fast and furious.  It can be fun,  I'm not arguing that.   I'm saying when it comes to winning, it's better not to do so.  

 

If you disagree strongly enough,  write your own Fanatic Guide.  We'll put it up on the page right next to mine, and anybody who feels like reading them can pick which strategy they want to use.   More power to you.    But I'm not going to sit here on my own thread on my own guide and say that losing life every turn to sacrosanct martyr is an equally strong way to play Fanatic when compared to using Exorcism/Absolution as your basic power instead.

32

I am not quite sure how global damage increases help Undaunted (Edit: I always forget about the Superhuman Durability aspect of Undaunted. I have been playing for a long time and honestly I have never had that or SHD proc that specific effect. Could just be me, but I find that effect (and SHD) not very useful generally when you play with an [H] under 5). I did mean DR effects. There are a many from the Environment (I am not sure why you would discount them), like the healing Vats in Pike for example.

There are a lot of times when the heros are dealt an instance of 2 damage. I have no data to back up this next claim, but I think that 2-3 damage is around the average per instance of damage (considering all [H] between 3 and 5), so any DR that Fanatic can pick up makes Undaunted extreamly good. A DR of 1 means she is essentially immune to all instance of damage of 1 and 2 while still reducing higher instances of damage. If you can manage 2 DR, she becomes immune to instances of 1, 2 and 3 damage, which is probably the majority of instances of damage that will be thrown her way.

Getting Fanatic DR is not usually an easy task. But if she can manage some, Undaunted becomes a crazy good very quickly.

If there ever turns out to be a hero with an Undaunted-like effect and in-deck DR, they would make one heck of a Tank. 

33

 I don't make any claims on how to play her how she is "fun" or "interesting",  this is all about optimiziation.  

There are situations where it is optimal.  Baron Blade, Iron Legacy, Apostate, Ambuscade, The Chairman, Miss Information, and lesser so Kismet, and The Matriarch all have low enough health that you can burn them down.

The major caveat is you need Retribution to use the strategy well.  A good number of her cards support that playstyle, and while it doesn't make sense in a neutral Comparison, there are enough circumstances where it does work that it is worth someone pointing out that it is an option.

We point out plenty of low chance occurances with other heroes, strategies that work well in certain circumstances with certain cards, and this is the same.  I'm not criticising your guide at all, just pointing out that Fanatic can use this playstyle and help her team win.  The circumstances aren't plentiful, but they do occur, and I think it would be beneficial if they had a sense of strategy in those circumstances.

With a rather lucky draw we had a fanatic tank a round of IL damage with sacrifice, dropping her to under five health, she retributioned and we won, the rest of us were at almost full health.

People see Sacrifice as a card that gives some damage but at a big tradeoff of getting you hurt, but when used well it keeps your teammates alive and sets you up to retribution or just Aegis to stay in the game.  Many times Aegis never gets used, even when it does get on the field.

If Legacy had a +10 hp heal people would be all about it, and wouldn't worry as much about Next Evolution being out before taking damage with lead from the front.  Aegis is at least a +10 heal, sometimes much more depending on how hard the hit that dropped you to 0 health was.  Used as a last ditch survival item Aegis is good enough, but when you save allies HP and bounce back up, it can really make the difference in a fight.

Fanatic is designed as a cost-benefit hero, and she can thrive while being very risky, her entire deck is set up for it, the fact that she works while playing her more traditionally is great, but that doesn't mean she can't benefit a team more by playing it risky.  You just have to be smart about when and how you do it.

34

It's still an opinion, there is no studies here that say it is based on fact. I'm not even say I disagree with your guide, hell, I haven't even read it. I just wanted to point out that your opinions are not fact. You can say that it is all you want, but it doesn't make it true.

35

 

So you skipped the original post, missed all the context, missed all the argumentation, missed all the evidence, and then decided to post here to criticize and tell me I haven't provided any evidence?   Ok,  I'm going to start ignoring you now.

36

I'm not criticizing, i'm saying you opinion is just that, an opinion.

 

Edit: I have now read your guide, and I can still safely say that your guide is still your opinion on the optimal way to play Fanatic. It has not changed my veiw points on how I feel is the "optimal" way to playing Fanatic.

I apologize if I have upset you by not agreeing with your opinion and don't feel that your guide is the absolute only way to use Fanatic effectively in the game. However us being two different people are not inclined to share an opinion on a matter. Do I think your preferred method of playing Fanatic is a bad one? Not in the least, infact there are situations where it is better to save Fanatic's HP. None the less, your opinion on the "optimal" playstyle is different than my "optimal" method of playing. I do apologize for offending you, that was not my goal in posting in the first place.

37

What sort of evidence do I need to provide for you to be satisfied?

 

Sacrosanct Martyr trades your HP for damage.   You can trade up to 5 hp for 5 damage.  Except that as a power, you are doing it at the expense of other powers, say Exorcism or Absolution.   for now,  lets assume that you are only using one power/turn, which is normal.

 

Lets say you do 5 damage, the maximum.   What was your trade like?   Well, its easy to say you traded 5 hp for 5 damage.   Except you didn't.   You lost 5 hp for 3 damage.    Or, if you had Absolution out, you lost 5 hp for 2 damage.   This is because you may only use one power per turn,   you can't compare against a null void,   you should be comparing against Exorcism or Absolution,   compare Sacrosanct Martyr against what else you could do on your power phase.    Since you could deal 3 damage anyway with no HP loss with Absolution,  you have just spent 5 hp to deal 2 extra points of damage.

 

Suppose damage is boosted, say +1.    With Exorcism or Absolution you deal 4 damage.   With Sacrosanct martyr you can lose 6 hp to deal 7 damage.    You've now lost 6 hp for 3 extra damage.   It does not scale better this direction.   At +2 damage, Exorcism does 6 damage, you could use Sacrosanct Martyr to lose 7 hp and deal 9 damage,   trading 7 hp for an extra 3 damage.

 

If damage is reduced to enemies, but not to yourself, Sacrosanct Martyr can do 5 damage to self to deal 4 damage to enemies.   This is where it starts to look a little better on account of Exorcism being only able to deal 0 damage.   Absolution could deal 2 damage though.   You lost 5 life to deal 2 extra damage.    If your damage is -2, you could deal yourself 5 damage to deal 3 damage, Absolution would only deal 1 damage,  and as you can see again,  you lost 5 hp to deal 2 extra damage.     Now sure,  maybe you really want to kill a Gene-bound guard or something,   I did say in the guide that I might play this and use its power as a desperation attack if something really needed to die and there was no other way to do it.   

 

Suppose you also have Embolden out,   Now you can use 2 powers/turn.    And Embolden deals Radiant damage right?  Bonus!    Except... not right.   Embolden deals its radiant damage at the end of your turn,  which means that it can't combo with Sacrosanct Martyr.   Too bad!  

 

Now it's easy to conclude what I'd probably say here:  why aren't you using Exorcism/Absolution instead of Exorcism/Martyr?   Well, maybe you don't have Absolution.   Lets assume that because otherwise using Exorcism/Absolution is exactly what you should do, as you can plainly deduce from what I've laid out above.    Now all your damage doesnt have to compare against Exorcism,  so ... thats good for Martyr. On the other hand, you're taking more damage because of Embolden, so it had best be worth it.

 

At +0 damage you lose 7 hp to deal 5 extra damage., +1 you lose 9 hp to deal 6 extra damage,  +2 you lose 11 hp to deal 7 extra damage.  You can't sustain this for long.

 

If there is some sort of a global damage negative, we don't have to cover this with Embolden out becuase remember that Exorcism is useless, so you may as well cancel Embolden, and see what I wrote about just using SS Martyr alone without Embolden.   Hint:  You're spending 5 life for +2 damage over Absolution.  But I did say we weren't talking about Absolution in this section, didn't I?  So you lose 5 hp and deal 4 damage with your power phase.

 

So when is the best time to use SS martyr?  Well its the last one.   When your Exorcism is reduced to dealing 0 damage and you don't have Absolution.    This works out to be the highest ratio of damage dealt/hp loss when considering what else you could do with your power phase.    That ratio is 4:5,   or 4 damage dealt per 5 hp lost.    Remember if you have Abolution it's better to use that instead.    

 

Every other time your ratios go down dramatically.   To reiterate, at +0 damage it is 3:5,  or 3 extra damage per 5 hp lost if you do not have absolution.   If you do have Absolution,  it's 2:5 instead.   At +1 damage dealt your ratio is 3:6.   3 extra damage dealt for every 6 hp spent.

 

Simply put, this simply isn't a good trade for you.   So if you use SSmartyr at +0 (and you do NOT have Absolution) and do this 4 times, you lost  20 of your 30 HP, you dealt 12 more damage than you otherwise would have, but you've likely nearly killed yourself to do it, (likely you're less than 5 hp right now, if you're not already dead, as the enemies will be hitting you too.).    So yes, I'm quite confident in saying using SS Martyr as a primary form of attack is suboptimal. 

38

So yes, I'm quite confident in saying using SS Martyr as a primary form of attack is suboptimal. 

I don't think anyone would argue that.

The problem is that the notion of losing health to be productive with most heroes is a bad idea, with Fanatic it is a part of the game.  The example I gave of damage stacking with Martyr is when TtE is on Fanatic, at which point divine focus and Chastise are costs that you turn into damage with Martyr.  Martyr's variable damage is its strong point, since it can set you up for a 29 point retribution.

Taking damage just to set up Retribution is in no way optimal, but tanking for your team, shutting down key non-character villain damage sources, and manipulating your HP to get a huge burst from Retribution is awesome.  VS several villains I've seen Fanatic shut down the opposition at the cost of her own health, then set herself up for a retribution before she would die and Aegis saves her.

The problem I have with ignoring that playstyle is that it minimizes the strength of cards like Divine sacrifice, Aegis of Ressurection, and zealous offense, which are all really powerful.

Zealous offense is almost always worth 2 health to keep out each round, yet so many times it doesn't get played because Fanatic can't deal 3 damage right then.  Several times I've heard this when players have Sacrosanct Martyr in hand and could play it first, then keep Offense out by dealing themselves the minimum needed to keep the card out.  The same works for divine focus, it almost gaurantees that Zealous offense stays out.

When I called Sanctifying Strike and Brutal Censure her weakest cards, it's because they don't have the potential to do as much as other cards in her deck.  They replace themselves, but you don't get extra card play on Fanatic, which limits the value of the extra card to be fixing you hand from bad cards, and with the number of really strong cards she has, they are the weakest.  They are good, they just aren't game changers.

I will admit that Divine Focus is worse, it is a pretty sad trade, I forget that it isn't radiant damage, if it was it would be much better.  It works well with TtE and Martyr, but that's getting highly rare considering the cards you need to be going that route anyway.

Things I think people need to remember about Fanatic that they often forget:

1) She has the best heal in the game by far, it's worth thinking of it as more than an emergency plan.

2) Damage dealt to yourself is damage dealt, Zealous offense can be paid for by cards that deal you damge.

3) Use Divine Sacrifice, if it doesn't kill you it's a win, provided you have Aegis or Retribution (both is best)

4) If you die, but set up your team for a win, it's still a win.  (Fanatic's Incaps aren't shabby either)

 

Burning fanatic isn't always the best option, but if you are smart about it, and recognize the right time to go for it, you will see a wickedly powerful side of her that many people miss.

My friend who burns her in any circumstance still ends with positive results more often than not.  I would go so far as to suggest people try it just to see what happens, you'll learn pretty quickly that it can work well, and it will destroy you if you do it wrong.

If you ever get Sacrifice and Retribution to start the game vs. Iron Legacy, it's a pretty sure win.

39

There's really nothing you can do to change my "optimal" method of playing Fanatic. As I play her the way I do because of the experiences I have had with her over the last couple of years. At the end of the day, we are still going to have are different method of playing Fanatic. I have my opinion about her and you have yours. The only difference is, you are saying my method is flawed and yours is absolutely the only method that should be used if someone wants to play her "optimally". While I am saying your method is a good way to play her, but I personally feel that the way I typically play her is the best way to use her in most situations.

I don't really think there is an "optimal" way to play any hero. As each hero can provide different jobs and can change the way they play depending on what villain you face.

40

Not to argue with anyone here, but I think this statement really undervalues Brutal Censure and Sanctifying Strike, particularly considering the amount that Zealous Offense is valued.

Zealous Offense requires 3 damage to stay in play, right?  Sanctifying Strike + Exorcism = 3 damage.  Brutal Censure + Exorcism = 4 damage.  In both cases, BC and SS replace themselves, with the added benefit of being able to target multiple foes and, in the case of SS, get a hit point back.  And, better than Sancrosanct Martyr, they don't cost you anything aside from your play phase.  Yes, SanctMartyr can get you into Zealous Offense mode, but when there are better, lower-cost methods to reach that 3 damage threshold, why would you keep damaging yourself?

Absolutely, the easiest way to hit the 3 damage threshold is Absolution.  But, in a game that features equipment destruction, SS and BC can help keep your ability to control rough targets under your thumb and do it better than Sancrosanct Martyr.

Personally, when I play Fanatic, I tend to shy away from dealing myself damage.  As a high HP target, Fanatic is often among the first (and most often) targeted heroes, and it doesn't take her long to melt those hit points away even as it is.  Are Aegis and Wrathful Retribution great cards?  Of course!  But I'd just as soon stay alive and contribute to the fight with cards like Sanctifying Strike or Smite the Transgressor than try to walk the tightrope of single digit hit points, hoping that I can get an Aegis down before the villains wipe me out.