Fixer's Jack Handle/Dual Crowbars and increased damage (again)

Other Games SotM Game Engine
21

Your FAQ is wrong.

As I said, directly from Christopher was Jack Handle is automatic, you read the cards that have Mr. Fixer deal damage to a target as dealing damage to all non-hero targets instead.

The reason you would deal 3 damage to all non-hero targets with Bloody Knuckles and Jack Handle in play is not because you first declare a target then all non-hero targets take the damage instead, preventing the first target from taking the inital selection. You deal all non-hero targets 3 damage because you read Strike as dealing all non-hero targets 1 melee damage, then when you are dealing damage to them all, you add the plus 2 for BLoody Knuckles. This is why you cannot select Mr. Fixer as the target, thus dealing 5 damage to all non-hero targets instead.

22

Let me approach this from a different perspective that might make it easier to understand. Before we even start talking about jack handle, let’s go through the basic order of operations when you deal damage:

 

1) Determine attack type type (not relevant to this conversation.

2) Determine base attack (the number listed on the card that is dealing the damage).

3) Determine all modifiers, you can choose the order.

4) If the number is greater than 0, reduce hp by that amount (obviously, not if they are immune).

 

Let’s focus on step #3. In this step you take all modifiers into account: plus/minus of the attacker, and plus/minus of the defender. You can choose the order that all of these modifiers come into effect. For example, if the target has -1 damage reduction, and the attacker has +1 damage, you can either do +1 - 1 or -1 + 1. There will be many times will it simply will not matter, but sometimes it can. The point is that all modifiers are assessed at the same time.

 

Using this basic order of operations that is used in every situation in SotM, we can understand how Jack Handles work. There are essentially three options:

 

A) Only taking some modifiers into account:

 

1) Determine attack type.

2) Determine base damage.

3) Determine all modifiers that only apply to the attacker.

4) Calculate this damage and apply it to all non-villain targets

5) For each target, determine their modifiers (it makes no sense to ignore these modifiers and actually deal damage based on step #4).

6) If the number is greater than 0, reduce hp (if not immune).

 

I really don’t see how the card can drastically affect the order of operations, there is nothing in the card itself that says you only take certain modifiers into account first, then others later. To say this would be a big stretch.

 

B) Determine all modifiers, then change source:

 

1) Determine attack type type.

2) Determine base attack (the number listed on the card that is dealing the damage).

3) Determine all modifiers, you can choose the order.

4) If the number is greater than 0, ignore this attack, and deal that same hp that would be loss to all non-villain targets, modified for the individual targets.

 

In theory, this might be a good interpretation, except that we have a ruling that says it isn’t. If this was the way everything was handled, then Fixer could hit himself with Bloody Knuckles to deal everyone else 5 damage, but we know that he can’t. So, this one is out too.

 

C) Determine only base damage:

 

1) Determine attack type.

2) Determine base damage.

3) Calculate base damage and apply it to all non-villain targets.

4) Determine all modifiers for each target, you can choose the order.

5) If the number is greater than 0, reduce hp by that amount for each target (obviously, not if they are immune).

 

Essentially, by necessity, this is the only interpretation that fits. If so, only the first target would get the bonus damage.

23

It seems pretty clear to me. Here are the stages of dealing damage:

1. Decide to attack a target.

2. You now would deal damage - Jack Handle triggers and changes the target at this stage.

3. You now Deal damage. Parse's Critical Multiplier, Haka of Battle, and other buffs trigger at this stage.

Note that in all current cases, you cannot change the damage being dealt before Jack Handle activates, since 'would deal damage' must always come before 'actually deal damage'.

 

24

There has been a lot of talk about "would deal damage" triggering before "deal damage", but we know that isn't true, based on the old Superhuman Durability and Fortitude ruling. The original ruling said that card play mattered, but it shouldn't have if "would be dealt" triggered first.

25

If the info I have on Jack Handles is wrong, I'd love to update it.  I hate to completely reverse a previous ruling without something official I can link to though.  Maybe Christopher could chime in with something quotable?

26

What I find interesting is that there's no "instead" -- and on other cards, if there's no "instead" it should not be implied. For example, Police Backup ("Whenever a villain card would make a player discard a card, destroy this card") does not prevent the discard. 

I play Jack Handles as I read it - do the initial damage as normal. Take the actual damage dealt, and deal it to all non-hero targets as a new attack.

In any case though, I'm sure I'll be talking to Christopher about this soon enough =)

27

We have a ruling that the original damage is canceled.

28

There are plenty of cards that say to deal all other targets a set amount of damage after an initial attack, so why wouldn't Mr. Fixer's? His says to do "that" damage to all non-hero targets. It could have been that he does "1" damage to all non-hero targets (which would still be buffed from styles and whatnot)...but that is obviously not intended, as written. It's akin to AZ doing "that much" cold damage to a target; he makes an attack (against himself), it may get modified to be more, then he does "that much" damage back out, modified again, if possible. I'm surprised there is confusion here when these are such similar situations.

29

As I mentioned above, that would be a good theory, except that we know it isn't true. In AZ's case, and seemingly what should be in ours, all modifiers are taken into account (both of the attacker and target, which would both be AZ), and then he deals "that much damage." However, we know that Fixer can't hit himself with Bloody knuckles in order to deal all other targets 5 damage. If it was similar to AZ, that would have worked.

30

Jack Handle is not an X damage card.  The initial damage isn't dealt, the process alters it to instead hit all non-hero targets.

That step comes first, before you calculate modifiers to damage.

For example Twist the Ether affects Jack handle by each individual instance of damage, not treating it as one instance.  In the same way Galvanize will increase each instance individually, and Critical Multiplier will work the same, treating each instance as a seperate instance of damage, and thus only affecting the first instance.

It works the same as Crowbars, turning the initial deal 1 target 1 damage into deal 2 targets 1 damage.  It then increases both by 1.

 

Absolute Zero works differently because he takes damage, and then responds with X damage.

 

For Jack Handle to work the way people are saying it does it would be worded:  

When Mr. Fixer deals damage, deal each other non-hero target X damage of the same type, where X is the amount of damage Mr. Fixer dealt.

31

Gah. Can we have a sensible thread title here please, so people know what this thread's actually about? 

I suggest something like "Jack Handle/Dual Crowbars and increased damage"

Vague titles like this one aren't at all helpful for people looking for answers. Mods?

32

Gah?

33

Quack.

 

I am of the opinion (with no real way to back it up) that it is only the first target who takes the increased damage.

34

Expression of mild annoyance and frustration.

35

OK, so that is mild. What is the next expression going towards full annoyance and frustration?

36

Damn it, Ronway!

37

It seems to me that the problem is with the word "that" on the Jack Handle. "That damage" could refer to either (a) the unmoddified damage being dealt by Mr. Fixer, or (b) the total damage being dealt by Mr. Fixer.

If (a), then only the first damage dealt gets the boost.

If (b), than the damage dealt to all of the targets gets the boost.

As a professional in language and logic, I think interpretation (a) makes the most sense of the English language as written on the card, but as someone familiar with the way this game usually works, I'm willing to bet that (b) is the intended interpretation.

If (b) is the intended interpretation, I suggest the following change to the wording on the card: 

"Whenever Mr. Fixer would deal damage to a (non-hero) target, he deals damage to all non-hero targets instead."

The "(non-hero)" is in there because I'm not too sure about whether or not the intent is just to make the jack handle work against non-heroes.

38

Hey, Silverleaf! You’re “Gah” worked!

39

Just wanted to point out that if the combo does work, PW Haka and Mr. Fixer are very good friends. Hmmmm…is taking out all of the Ennead at full health with one Strike too powerful?

40

Considering the buildup needed for that to happen it seems fine.