Is Nightmist auto-win in some situations?

Hey guys, first post on the forums for me!

My group and I don't get a chance to play too often, so A) we only have SotM EE and the recently released combo pack reissue thing for Rook City and Infernal Relics, and B) we've barely played any hero/villain/environment more than once. So sorry if this is all old news, we're still discovering a lot.

We played Spite for the first time, with Rook City, and Nightmist, Expatriette, and Argent Adept (in retrospect, a team that was pretty terrible at dealing damage). It got to the point where everyone but Nightmist was incapped, but with Mist Form and Starshield Necklace in play (as well as most of her other equipment and ongoings), she could just stall forever since Spite only returns one ongoing/equipment card to your hand in a H=3 game and Rook City doesn't affect ongoing/equipment. Nightmist can always replay the one card that was returned to her hand, always keeping Mist Form in play.

We could keep stacking Expat's 3rd incap ability ("Select a hero. The next time that hero uses a power, that hero also deals 1 target 1 projectile damage") indefinitely, so we just ended the game once we realized that, since we said "OK, let's pretend we played 40 more turns of this" and we could kill Spite in one turn. We also had a favourable order for the drugs, in that the damage ones (Mynd-Phre, Demon's Kiss) were the first 2 drugs we pulled, so even if Nightmist had to return all of her ongoing/equipment to her hand, Mist Form would only be returned to hand after the damage from those 2 was dealt.

This "keep playing damage immunity against Spite" also works with other incapped abilities:

  • Option 1: keep stacking "Select a hero. Increase the next damage dealt by that hero by 2". Once stacked enough times, instead of replaying Mist Form, play Amulet of the Elder Gods so you don't kill yourself, then Oblivion or simply activate Investigation. With Visionary's Telekinetic Cocoon, play a damage one-shot instead for the same effect. (Absolute Zero, Fanatic have this, Expatriette almost has this but is more susceptible to DR)
  • Option 2: use "One player may play a card" to get two card plays during the hero phase. Occasionally play Oblivion to wear down Spite, then with your second play put down Mist Form again. Spend many turns hiding behind Mist Form while Starshield Necklace restores HP. With Visionary's Telekinetic Cocoon, occasionally destroy TK Cocoon so you can play a damage one-shot, then replay another TK Cocoon from your hand. (Bunker, Fanatic, Haka, Tachyon, The Wraith have this)

Now, this obviously falls apart if PL626 Compound XI is the first drug to enter play and if you have H=4 or H=5, since Nightmist will lose her damage immunity and HP regeneration each turn and take damage from Spite's abilities and would have difficulty surviving long enough for those incap abilities to build up. Still, when Nightmist kinda trivialized the rest of the Spite fight in our situation, my group was kinda put off, because unless Nightmist got incapped in the first few turns, she has so much card draw that it seems inevitable she would get her setup going, then nothing can really stop it. Our poor team barelt outpaced Spite's life gain, but Nightmist + incapped heroes proved to be completely safe and unstoppable.

In what other situations does Nightmist's Mist Form or The Visionary's Telekinetic Cocoon trivialize the game? It sounds like my group may want to avoid those if only because, while amusing, it doesn't seem necessary to play those matches out if damage immunity will make the game a guaranteed win. From what I can tell, aside from Spite, these seem like they might apply:

  • Plague Rat: with no way to destroy ongoing, Mist Form or Telekinetic Cocoon make it hard to ever die. His HP regen from Bestial Vitality and Plague Locus would make things trickier, so whittling him to death via Option 2 is less viable, though stacking Option 1 should still work.
  • Grand Warlord Voss: also trickier, because you'll have to leave Mist Form/TK Cocoon occasionally to use Oblivion or Demoralization + Psychic Maelstrom to clear all the minions and prevent Voss from winning with minion count. Because of Voss' innate DR based on minions, Option 2 seems all but impossible, but Option 1 shouldn't be a problem.
  • Gloomweaver: he has many "a hero must destroy one of their cards or else take damage", but with no forced destroy, you can safely hide behind Mist Form or Telekinetic Cocoon and never take the damage. Pouch of Bones regen is problematic, so Option 2 is less viable, but Option 1 should still be fine.
  • Baron Blade: not guaranteed, but assuming your team lasts long enough to flip him, you have all the time in the world, because like Gloomweaver, his only relevant card is "destroy one of their cards or else take damage" but you can again hide behind damage immunity. Baron Blade has minimal life gain, so Option 1 and 2 both seem viable.
  • Most environment cards: while some throw a monkey wrench into things (Realm of Discord, Megalopolis), none of the environment decks I have seem to really do much to ongoing cards, so this strategy isn't impacted by the environment deck very much.

Sorry that ended up being so long-winded, but I tried to be as thorough as possible. Also a few other random questions:

When you redirect villain or environment damage with Amulet of the Elder Gods, that damage doesn't get boosted by Elder Ring, right? My two friends were convinced that Nightmist somehow gets ownership of the damage by redirecting it (like she's preventing it, then creating an equivalent damage pointed at something else), but I'm fairly certain that Amulet is just reassigning a target, so Elder Ring doesn't care.

We haven't played against him yet, but does Apostate ever flip? Once you get him low, shouldn't you always just focus on clearing out all the relics before you reduce Apostate himself to zero? My friend suggested that maybe you would intentionally flip him if your heroes are almost dead, because he deals half as much damage when he is a Dark Corruptor, but it still seems like you're losing a lot of ground by doing that since he gets back 20 HP and is regaining HP every turn while constantly targeting your lowest HP hero.

Hmm, firstly - you can't play cards when in Mistform, so if Spite is returning stuff to your hand, sooner or later you will have to lose it. Unless you mean that Mistform itself was the card being returned to hand, in which case you'll still take damage on Spite's turn because the return-to-hand drug acts in his Start phase, meaning stuff like Mindphyre and Demon's Kiss will still hit you during his End phase. But I suppose that's what the Necklace is for, right? :wink:

It's worth noting that Voss does have a means of destroying your stuff, though only via one card - the Dreadnaught.

Baron Blade's damage card you mention, assuming it's Devious Disruption you're talking about, hurts everyone for three damage plus the total number of equipment and ongoing cards everyone has in play. So if Nightmist keeps Mistform out, she will take no damage due to it making her immune, but everyone else will take four damage (more if she or they have other cards in play).

To answer your questions at the end - when damage is redirected, you're only changing the target, not the source. If Nightmist has her Amulet out and a Zombie tries to hit her but she redirects, it's still the Zombie doing the damage. Note that this also involves stuff like Mr Fixer - if he has his PIpe Wrench out he has plus one damage and plus one soak. If you have Driving Mantis out, the first time he is hit every turn for two damage or fewer he may choose to redirect that damage to the target of his choice. One of Voss's Minions tries to hit him for three points of damage, but the Pipe Wrench reduces it to two, so Mantis activates and he redirects it to another Minion (the one hitting him will be immune to its own damage type, as all of them are), at which point the target of that damage has changed so it goes back up to three again :).

Apostate, meanwhile, is impossible to defeat if he has any Relics out when reduced to 0hp - if this occurs, he detroys a Relic and flips instead. You can, however, insta-kill him with cards like Sucker Punch or Wrathful Gaze if you can get his hp low enough, as those cards specify to "destroy" a target, in which case you're not reducing his hp to zero or fewer (his flip condition) but bypassing that altogether. Apostate is one of the villains you [don't want to flip, so you need to smash all the Relics before you kill him - if lots of AE damage is likely (if you're playing with someone like Tempest, or in an environment such as Silver Gulch), you then need to be careful not to accidentally flip him by blowing up All of the Things but leaving any Relics in play (say, if the Runes are out so all Relics have two points of soak, meanwhile a soakless Apostate is on 3hp or something).

There are times flipping Apostate is the better option.  Say you have Orb and runes, it can be really hard to get rid of them, often easier to just focus down Apostate and use his flip to clear runes, then Orb with no reduction is easier to bring down.

There are many situations where a rune is harder to kill than that 20hp of Apostate is.

 

Nightmist is rarely an Auto-win, but when you combine her with incap effects the number of instances increase.  There are a decent number of near auto-win situations in the game, they are kind of cool when you find them.

Nightmist, being one of the most powerful heroes, has a lot of them involving her.

About Baron Blade, playing an extra card isn't always going to work either. Baron Blade can get a DR of 2, thanks to having 2 copies of Living Force Field. There is also 2 copies of Backlash Field, resulting in 3 or 6 damage each turn. Visionary would also need Mental Divergence in play, but not to destroy these ongoings, but to put the Cocoon back on top of her deck, allowing her to draw it and be able to put it on play on the other hero's turn. Plus, with her few one-shots, she'll also need a hero that can retrieve cards from the trash. So for Visionary to auto win against Baron Blade, the incapped heroes need to have ongoing destruction, card retrieval, and card play. Turn order would also need the card play to be after Visionary's turn, while the ongoing destruction would be best before her turn. It would also have to be a pretty quick game, if it last long enough for Baron Blade to reshuffle his deck again you may have to deal with some Mobile Defense Platform's again. But the +2 damage still works.

In NightMist's case against Baron Blade, Mist Form isn't even really needed. All that is needed is the Amulet and for Baron Blade to get his Backlash Fields in play, now you just draw tons of cards and redirect Baron's damage back at him, thus triggering his own Backlash Field, resulting in some nice damage. Note that you are facing Baron Blade, meaning you typically don't fall down to the last remaining hero that is fighting for survival.

Voss relies on a lot of factors to be able to beat using the immunity method. With a ton of +2 stacks, when you do need to pop out to kill minions, Voss could be in a position to not even be harmed by it, or you may need to kills a ship instead. Plus it will leave you defenseless for a round, NightMist may not even have a spare Mist Form to go into next round, while Visionary will need Mental Divergence to retrieve it. Best way is for having an environment to kill off everything for you, such as in the Ruins of Atlantis with The Kraken, Mystical Defenses, and some Phosphorescent Chambers in play or Insula Primalis with the Volcanic Eruption.

With Plague Rat, the +2 damage can work with NightMist, but not likely with Visionary, unless you have ongoing destruction. With NightMist and Amulet, you can redirect that load of damage from either Infection or Afflicted Frenzy, Visionary would have no choice to take it. Though like Voss, having the environment beat him to death is always an option!

With GloomWeaver, the +2 damage is totally doable! But like Baron Blade, he rarely gets heroes to the point of one lone survivor.

So what we are looking at is NightMist/Visionary and incapped Absolute Zero/Fanatic against Baron Blade and GloomWeaver is totally an auto-win with hiding in Mist Form/Telekinetic Cocoon, but rarely needed.

NightMist/Visionary in Insula or or Atlantis for an environmental murder of Voss or Plague Rat.

NightMist with Fanatic/Absolute Zero for the kill on Plague Rat. Visionary with Fanatic/Absolute/Expatriette with someone with ongoing destruction for the kill on Plague Rat.

Interesting analysis and thought process, BisonHero. I've never seen a situation in which NightMist was an Auto-Win, but you've definitely laid out some very challenging / interesting situations.

I have to admit, this part surprised me. I know some folks say that Expat doesn't do a lot of damage (which I don't agree with and haven't seen much), but Nightmist… That character can lay down some serious hurt!

Yeah, AA doesn't do much in way of damage, although he can get in his shots. :wink:

I guess our damage wasn't completely terrible. In our situation, Spite actually didn't flip for a while, so while Expat was using Tactical Shotgun constantly and Nightmist had the occasional Oblivion and redirect of damage through Amulet of the Elder Gods, it got us almost nowhere because of Spite's life gain. Mind-Phyre came out very early, so we never had to deal with environment cards really, but it meant the only non-hero target was Spite, so Oblivion didn't seem quite as impressive as it also slowly killed Expat and AA while only hitting Spite for like 5 or 6. Between Oblivions and the drug that deal 2 toxic whenever you use a power, Expat and AA went down kinda fast.

And this was with my group incorrectly thinking that Amulet of the Elder Gods could redirect Spite's innate damage ability, and that in doing so it somehow became Nightmist's damage, therefore Spite doesn't gain back life from it.

If you're having issues overcoming the lifetap effect, just hold on till Spite gets all his drugs out - then you can hurt him and make it stick ;). If you have Wraith in play, Utility Belt and double Stun Bolt should be all you need to kick his arse (well, to nerf him utterly so everyone else can ;)). At least, with H as three...