Just how far-reaching are the effects of this card? Rules-lawyerish fellow that I am, I want to read it as only preventing any direct interaction between a hero and their allies; I don't see it treating all their cards as blank for the purposes of the others and vice versa. For instance, Chrono-Ranger has By Any Means on a target; heroes who deal damage to that target are not "affecting or being affected by" By Any Means itself, since By Any Means "affects" the villain target it's played on. Am I ruling this as intended, or is it really meant to effectively blank the cards?
The instance of damage you are dealing is being increased by that heros effect. Sounds to me like isolated hero prevents that interaction. But there's already threads on this very subject. I'd recommend posting in those.
I searched for "isolated" and found threads which did not appear to answer my question. Until the search function of this board improves, please discontinue chiding me for creating a new topic every time I have a question (since it's already been established that people would rather that new, redundant topics proliferate, rather than a generic catch-all questions thread be used).
There is a thread about Isolated Hero and Incapacitated powers that was the second tag when I typed "Isolated Hero" into the search. I only skimmed the thread but it seems to cover most of the questions that would relate to Isolated Hero.
If it was in my search results, it must not have appeared to pertain to my question based on the little preview snippet.
Multiple threads about the same topic is not quite as useless as a single extremely-difficult-to-search-for thread with mutliple topics, but it's hardly ideal.
Ideal = one appropriately-titled thread per topic/card/similar, with one topic/card/similar per thread.
Fragmenting information just makes searching more difficult.
2nd result for "isolated hero"
> ... and Gameplay Quote In a 4 hero game, 3 heroes were incapacitated, the last active hero has Isolated Hero on him, can other incapacitated heroes let the Isolated Hero play ...
Isolated hero prevents you from affecting any other hero card.
By any means does not affect a hero card, it affects a Villain card, only damage to that card is affected.
Isolated heroes are allowed to affect villain cards, so I don't see why it would not be allowed.
Take down would still work if Legacy was Isolated, and if he wasn't but someone else was the isolated hero would benefit from take down, but Take Down is still a legal play, just like Ground Pound or Hypersonic.
Visionary could still Wrest the Mind or Twist the Ether on a villain card, and while that might benefit another hero it would be allowed, because the effect of the card is on the villain, not the hero.
Twist the Ether is a good sample case, by reducing damage or changing type Visionary can greatly affect the Villain-Hero relationship, and affect the Hero target by changing the amount of HP it loses.
By any Means affects a hero card effect by increasing the damage that a villain takes. Neither effect is directed at a hero card, but both affect hero cards (or effects) secondarily.
I would say that heroes affected by isolated hero do not benefit from By Any Means. Anything that increases a hero's damage is affecting them as well as the villain. Take Down affects the villain deck, but doesn't give any individual bonuses to a hero, same with Ground Pound. I do agree that you could play Twist the Ether on a villain card and not worry about isolated hero, but again that's entirely affecting the villain card and not anything the hero is actually doing.
But it isn't boosting the hero's damage. It is increasing damage dealt to the villain, from any source. The effect has nothing to do with the hero at all, just like twist the ether doesn't have anything to do with the target of the attack.
The end result is altered, the non-isolated hero's involvement in either is secondary. The villain takes more damage, the hero isn't getting his damage boosted, The villain deals less damage, the hero isn't gaining reduction.
The end result might be the same as if the heroes damage had been boosted, or the hero had been granted reduction, but the process does not involve the hero.
The hero's damage is still being increased. Instead of dealing 1 damage, they are now dealing 2. The effect on the hero is secondary to the effect on the villain, but an effect on a hero is still being made. They are able to do extra damage to that villain target because of something another hero card in another hero deck is doing.
Take Down, Twist the Ether on a villain card, and Ground Pound do not actually affect anything the hero is doing. By Any Means actually does, although passively.
No, but that hero is sure doing more damage as a result of the other heros card effect. That is not debatable.
Is the hero doing damage benefiting from a card effect of an isolated hero? The answer is yes. That is clearly not the intent of Isolated Hero.
The way I see it, if Hero A is Isolated, then Heros B-E do not see Hero A's cards or take any effect they bring to the table into account and vice versa. You pretend like its not even there. Anything else and you are just grabbing at straws for loopholes. Its an awesomely unique villain card ability, there is no reason to neuter it.
Then Visionary shouldn't be able to use Twist the Ether to lower damage to a Hero card. Her effect is clearly beneffitting that card.
By your they can't see the cards By any Means wouldn't be affected at all, it goes on the villain, it gets placed in the villain play area. If Wraith Stun bolted a villain while Isolated, would the reduction of villain damage dealt only lower damage when her card would be attacked?
Could Chrono Ranger when Isolated retaliate with the Ultimate Target if an ally was damaged?
Secondary benefits are secondary benefits, the effect of the card is on a non-hero. The card has the right to affect a non-hero. Isolated hero does not have the power to stop a hero from affecting a non-hero card or non-hero card effect.
How about Mega-Computer, can it reduce damage to Environment targets while Wraith is isolated, or would it only reduce the damage being dealt to her?
The card does have the right to affect a non-hero. Sure. Thats correct. But Isolated Hero EXPLICITLY prevents other heros from benefiting from the effects of your cards. Yes the Bounty can be played on the Villain, and an Isolated Chrono can still benefit from that +1 damage increase. Is the effect coming from an Isolated Hero? Yes. Is a non-isolated hero benefiting from that effect? Yes. That is the entire point of the card, to prevent that.
This does not stop the bounty from affecting the villain target. It is stoping other heros from benefiting from that effect though.
If Wraith is Isolated with Mega-Computer, she would still benefit from the damage reduction, and the Villain/Environment targets would also still be affected by Mega-Computer, but the other Heros would not benefit from Mega-Computer.
I mean, the wording is pretty explicit here guys. I get the confusion on some cards, but this one?
If Wraith Stun bolted a villain while Isolated, would the reduction of villain damage dealt only lower damage when her card would be attacked?
Could Chrono Ranger when Isolated retaliate with the Ultimate Target if an ally was damaged?
Wraith's StunBolts, in my opinion, would only benefit her if she was the the one Isolated. Again, Isolated hero explicitly prevents other heros from benefiting from any effect originating from your cards and deck. Other heros would not benefit from your effects. Yes, debuffing the Villain is an effect steming from your deck and cards. Care to argue that point otherwise?
An Isolated Chrono Ranger could absolutley retaliate with Ultimate Target if an ally was damaged. Chrono Ranger is not benefiting from another heros effects, nor are other heros benefiting from his effect (they are not getting to use a free power), so its Chrono being effected by his own card, so that seems perfectly fine.
The word benefit is nowhere on the card.
Your hero and cards cannot affect or be affected by a hero card or effect.
There is nothing in there about heroes not benefiting from your cards effecting a villain target.
If a villain takes reduced damage, that villain is not affecting heroes, the villain is affecting their own cards.
To interpret that the isolated hero may do nothing that impacts another hero is absurd.
Can you damage a villain target? That helps other heroes win.
Can you destroy an ongoing card that would deal damage? That certainly benefits other heroes.
Can you discard a card for Suspicious Malfunction? If so would the count be different for the isolated vs non-isolated heroes?
What about Threat to the President or concealed betrayal, can the isolated hero be the one who destroys a card? Can they destroy a card or discard to fulfil the destruction requirement on the card?
None of these situations is the isolated hero or one of their cards affecting another hero, yet they all are beneficial to the other heroes.
If you can't discard toward the (H) cards to destroy Concealed Betrayal, what wording on the actual card Isolated Hero tells you that you can't?
If you can discard, and thus lower the amount of cards the rest of the team needs to discard, then why wouldn't you be able to do the same with other effects of non-hero cards?
The effects of non-hero cards can be affected while you are isolated. Twist the Ether and Wrest the Mind affecting the effect of a non-hero card is not stopped by Isolated hero. That the villain card is being affected while effecting a hero target is unimportant to fulfilling the text of the card.
Seriously, answer these questions using the text of the card Isolated hero. Don't just tell me it is explicit and then use wording that isn't on the card to justify your interpretation. If the card is explicit then use its wording to answer the questions.
Benefiting / affecting can be used interchangibly. Seriously? If you are benefiting from an effect, you are being affected by it. No two ways around that one. I am open to any counter example you can cook up though. "Affecting" wording includes the possibility of excluding effects that could hinder you as well (say Wraith with Micro Targeting is isolated so it would be hurt by Ra having Imbued Fire out). Thats the only difference
I understand what you are saying with the Bounty and its relationship with increasing damage dealt to villain targets. But you have to look at it from an un-isolated heros perspective. Wraith shoots the villain with By Any Means with Razor Ordinance for 3. By Any Mean increases damage dealt to the villain target by 1. Increases whos damage? The hero doing it, of course. Normally, By Any Means would increase the damage Wraith does to the villain by 1. By Any Means, in this example, is an effect coming from an Isolated heros cards/deck. Should Wraith's damage be "affected" by an effect coming directly from an isolated heros cards/deck? You're saying yes? How exactly is Wraith not being affected here again?
Edit: The discarding thing? Thats not an effect coming from the Isolated Heros deck or cards, so I fail to see how Isolated Hero would come into that conversation at all. Does not apply.
Edit2:
To interpret that the isolated hero may do nothing that impacts another hero is absurd.
Absurd? Thats the entire point of the card!!! Thats the EXACT intent.
Edit3: If Twist the Ether was put on a villain target (as an example), if that target deals damage to an Isolated Hero, Twist the Ether is not directly affecting the Isolated Hero, so in this case I would say that TtE could reduce that villains damage and have that attack the Iso hero. But you must see the difference between this case and the Any Means Nessesary example. Wraith's damage was being directly affected by the Iso heros card in play. So I see your point with the "benefit" wording, but that minor semantic difference doesn't change the core argument.
To interpret that the isolated hero may do nothing that impacts another hero is absurd.
Absurd? Thats the entire point of the card!!! Thats the EXACT intent.
Almost everything any hero does that affects the game affects other heroes.
Destroying ongoing cards affects other heroes, dicarding to help destroy Concealed Betrayal helps other heroes.
If I'm Isolated and I discard all four of my cards to destroy Concealed Betrayal that certainly is a direct benefit to the other heroes. Yet you are OK with that.
I'm not talking about hero cards affecting heroes I'm talking about hero cards affecting villains and Environment cards.
For Stun Bolt, the effect of the damage a villain deals is an effect of a villain card. The amount of that damage can be influenced by environment, villain or hero cards, but the damage is only the effect of the villain. So why would a card effect that reduces damage a villain target deals be illegal under isolated hero?
You are reducing the damage a villain deals. Legacies Galvanize doesn't affect Villain targets. It affects hero targets. The damage done by a hero affects the villain.
You have said in the past that static effects essentially change the text on cards that are affected by it, so Galvanize would cause Throwing knivs to say deal 2 damage instead of 1. Stun Bolt by the same logic would lower the damage dealt by villain targets on their card, it is still the Villain dealing damage, the amount affected by Stun bolt is determined before the hero card is involved. The damage dealt to a character by a villain target that has been stun bolted is solely the effect of the villain card, not Wraith. Wraith is affecting the villain's ability to deal damage, that is all.
Please, answer this one.
How about Ground Pound, can non-hero targets deal damage to an isolated hero if Haka plays Ground Pound? If Haka is Isolated will Ground Pound only prevent them from damaging Haka?
How about Hypersonic?
If an Isolated hero can prevent a non-hero target from dealing damage to their allies then they can affect damage that would be dealt to allies by affecting the villains ability to deal damage, the same as Stun Bolt or Mega Computer affects a non-hero card's ability to deal damage.
Ronway is here to toss in his 2 cents!
I play it that any card that affects non-hero cards (Hypersonic Assualt, By Any Means, Ground Pound, etc) will continue to apply to heroes, as it is directly affecting non-hero cards and not the heroes. While cards that affect heroes/players (Galvanize, Fleet of Foot, Imbued Fire) would not apply to heroes.
It seems to me that at least part of the question is about who damage belongs to. Is it:
- A property of the damage dealer,
- a property of the damage receiver, or
- two properties, one belonging to each?
An example:
Wraith, while Galvanized, uses Throwing Knives to damage a villain who has By Any Means played next to them. Under normal circumstances, with no other relevant effects in play, Wraith would deal 3 damage. If Wraith is Isolated, here is how I would interpret the situation for each of the three answers to the question above.
- The damage being dealt is Wraith's damage. Since Galvanize and By Any Means directly affect the damage and that damage belongs to Wraith, they cannot be used. The villain takes 1 damage.
- The damage being dealt is the villain's damage. Since Galvanize and By Any Means affect the damage and that damage belongs to the villain, they can be used. The villain takes 3 damage. I imagine that most people will agree that this interpretation is not correct.
- The damage occurs in two phases. The first phase is Wraith dealing damage. Galvanize affects the damage that Wraith is dealing, so it cannot be used. The Wraith deals one damage in the first phase. The second phase is the villain taking damage. By Any Means affects the damage that the villain is taking, so it can be applied. The total amount of damage dealt to the villain is 2.
I think that 1 and 3 are equally valid interpretations - neither of them is obviously correct, or this discussion would not be happening.