K.N.Y.F.E.'s Overdo It - incredibly underwhelming

Other Games SotM Game Engine
1

Played a solo game to test out some of the new Vengeance heroes.  K.N.Y.F.E. felt like a major disappointment.  She's got some cool cards in her deck that can make for some pretty powerful combos, but a Overdo It felt completely out of place.  Overdo It sucks for two reasons:

First, in most cases you will play the card during your own play phase, which means you have to take damage at the end of that turn before you can benefit from that card whatsoever (assuming the card is not destroyed before it gets back to your turn).  Rarely another hero will allow you to play a card out of turn, but this seems like quite a hassle just to get decent value out of the card.  Both Tachyon's Pushing the Limits and Ra's Solar Flare at least allow you to benefit from the card before choosing whether or not to destroy it.  I am considering house ruling a swap on Overdo It allowing you to play a card at the end of your turn and take damage/destroy at the start of your turn.

Second, even if I house rule that swap, the effect is still not very good because K.N.Y.F.E. has virtually no mechanisms for filling her hand.  Almost every other card in her deck allowing her to draw also allows her to play the same number of cards.  The only exception is her "Overcharged Null Shield" (2 copies in deck) which allows you to draw two cards but only as a secondary effect of destroying the shield.  The only way she'll ever have more than 3 or 4 cards in her hand is if another hero gives her card draw.  Without having a big hand I see no reason to play "Overdo It" because I need to have it out for at least two turns to even recoup the play action used to play it.  The chance of having four cards (my entire hand) to play that I can get maximum value out of is pretty small.  In the rare case that I do pull it off (perhaps with the help of another hero), I certainly wouldn't expect to do it again after I've emptied my hand, so what I'm going to do with the other two copies of Overdo It in the deck I do not know.  Having two of them in my hand of 3-4 cards made for boring play.  I think K.N.Y.F.E. would be a stronger hero if I simply removed these cards from her deck because they don't work with the rest of it.

2

Completely disagree with Overdo It. The fact that you can play card at the start of your turn can lead to some amazing combos with her.

What's that? I can play For the Greater Good to chain into Battlefield Experience and play 2 additional cards, possibly setting up another Battlefield Experience for my Power Phase, all before I get my regular Play Phase?

It's a balancing act (almost on a knife's edge you could say), do you have a big enough chain (or need) to warrent the risk? If you know what's coming or can stack your deck (thanks to other heroes help) then you have a stabulous good time with K.N.Y.F.E.

3

Granted, I've only played once, but it seems unlikely to have the cards you mention in my hand given the card draw issues I described above.  The cards you mentioned (For the Greater Good, and Battlefield Experience) are the only two one-shots in her deck that allow her to draw.  The rest of her cards don't.  The chance of having exactly those cards in a limited hand are small.  I don't disagree that there can be some great combos, but to me you have to partner with another hero to give you card draw if you want to be able to pull those combos off consistantly.

Teamwork is certainly part of the game, but I want all of the cards in my deck to be effective by themselves, and then for them to go above and beyond if I can combo them with a teammate.

4

its also very good in conjunction with Primed Punches- being able to start a turn with 4 (or more) damage can be exactly what she needs to maximize the rest of her turn- particularly if there is an annoying low-HP creature (like a gene bound guard) that is providing armor that would otherwise cramp her multiple damage style.

Its best used to come out strong, put out some ongoings/equipment in preparation, or to string together a big combo.  While she does benefit from other people helping her draw (but lets be honest, ALL heroes benefit from that...), its a solid card that can lead to some very cool turns.  

 

What it isn't:

It is not something you play in the hopes that you'll use it later.  Her combo cards chew up her HP, and you want to use them judiciously. KNYFE is at her best when you pick the right moment to go all out. However- i guarantee that the first time you get one of those strings of Overdo it/primed punch/greater good/battlfield XP (with a conduit blade and servo guantlet), you'll understand.   

 

5

If you have only one play, I recommend more plays before making changes. I was not part of the playtest group for Vengeance but I think they did a good job of balancing things out.

6

Since you have only played once, here is my little take things:

This game is highly situational. The card effects reflect that. There are thousands of game combinations and order that effects could show up in. The game has incredible replay value because of its highly situational nature.

With that said, with only having a few games under the belt, there are multitudes of game situations you have not found yourself in. Cards that might seem like poop during normal situations will turn out to be a total game changer in a few days because it was the perfect fit for the situation you were in.

When I first bought the game way back when it first hit the retail shelves, I swore that Tempest's Shielding Winds was terrible. I never used it and never needed to. Crap card in an otherwise top notch deck. Then, a year later I kid you not, it was the difference between loosing and winning and I finally found its place. Plauge Rat with H=5 helped that cause. 

The point is, do not rule out the usefulness of cards so quickly. This game can throw the hardest of vets curveballs (took Matriarch 2.5 rounds to end our miserable game last night for instance), but stick with it. KNYFE is still very new to everyone. Overdo It certainly has a great niche it fills in KNYFE's deck. Once you figure it out it will be the greatest feeling!

7

My only problem with Overdo It, is that you have to take the damage twice for it to be really effective.  If you only leave it out for 1 round, then you're just breaking even (you could have played the "extra" card instead of Overdo It).  I'll admit that I use it when I open my hand and see something like Focused Conduit-Blade, Servo, and Kinetic Neutralizer, because it lets me setup in 2 rounds instead of 3, but it certainly isn't my most used card.

8

If your first game with Chrono-Ranger had you holding two Hunter & Hunted, a Temporal Grenade and Terrible Tech-Strike, you might have a low opinion of him too.  Personally I was very disappointed with Mr. Fixer my first few times playing him, because I kept drawing nothing but Styles.  Even now I don't consider him a terribly strong hero, but I have had "live the dream" moments with him, and I've seen that he's generally designed not to be the hero who carries all the weight for his team, but rather the one who sits on a pile of options and has something up his sleeve which might work at any critical juncture.  If you have ADHD or mild narcissism, Fixer is probably not the hero for you; he rewards cautious, passive, reactionary play of a type that doesn't sit well with some players, but for others he's exactly their cup of tea.  Given that KNYFE is a secret agent, it makes some sense that she would take a similar "wait and see what's needed" attitude, and this Overdo It card sounds like it plays a somewhat similar role to Slip Through Time, one of the strongest cards in Omnitron-X's deck.  I can definitely see the logic to a card like that, plus if we're talking about cards that are better if someone else lets you play them outside your turn, it's hard not to immediately think of Unity's bots.  It can totally be worth it.

9

That's the fun part about my style of play! If I play a card that does self damage a round, it will stay that way until I am approaching single hit points!

10

I second what others have said. this isnt a CCG/LCG where when you put a card into a deck it has to matter because your deckspace is tight. these are fixed decks, and a lot of cards are highly situational. But man when those situational moments come up...!

11

I don't have Vengance, yet, but as lynxfox pointed out you can't complain too much about one card in any deck since it is not a CCG. EVERY hero deck has a card that players wish was better. One thing I've found is that a lot of times when an alternate hero card is released that sucky card is suddenly huge (Surge of Strength and Bloody Knuckles come to mind).

Now on the flip side there certainly have been heroes where there were many, many problems which led to many giant forum threads on house rules, arguments, and complaining. If there are only a few weak cards in her deck then K.N.Y.F.E. will do just fine.

12

It appears from the other post (oft debated Fixer) that it wasn't clear what I meant. Surge of Strength and Bloody Knuckles became much much better with the release of the promos Young Legacy and Dark Watch Fixer. I was hinting that maybe Overdo It will be much better with the release of a promo K.N.Y.F.E.

13

Other classic decks have dead cards too the most proeminent exemple in my mind is Haka with Punish the weak (works fine against spite and well that pretty much the use I've found for it) and Enduring Intercession (extremely situational). Then again they make excellent fodder for Haka's discard mechanic and Haka in general doesn't feel like and underwhelming hero.

Then Ra comes in with Wrathful gaze again can be good if extreme dr is in play but the ability to be able with preparation to dish out 5 dmg a power each turn kind of kills it. Then again Ra is a classic flamer and well such bad draws simply feel like compensation for awesome cards.

What I mean is underwhelming cards do not automaticly kill a deck and well I can't really say whal feel I get out of K.N.Y.F.E., but I really doubt situational cards kill her deck and who knows maybe she'll get a promo where they become the greatest thing ever. I for a long time felt Bloody Knuckles was mostly great discard fodder and then Dark Watch Fixer came and fixed the issue.

14

Knyfe has a lot of ridiculous turn combos, you are taking 2 damage to delay your card play until the start of your next turn.

That isn't the greatest thing ever, but there are plenty of heroes that could use that to great effect, and KNYFE is one of them.

 

It isn't about extra card play, it is about moving you card play to the next round where it can pile on for one epic turn.

 

In a Vacuum that isn't the best thing ever, but when you have little to do that round (those rounds happen, like when Forced Deployment comes into play) you can hold you card play until the next round, when it will be much more valuable.

15

Here's a question about "Overdo It" that no one's asking -- why is KNYFE desaturated on that card?  It was like that on the proofs too, so I have to imagine that it's not a mistake, but I don't understand what happened to make her chromatically challenged.

16

It's a thematic choice. I think it's a great symbolic gesture of her going into a morally grey area, taking the violence too far.

That was my interprettation, anyway.

17

Yeah, I like that interpretation. I just figured it was a comics thing, and not to worry about it.

18

Heres my general take on it, and how I use it for greatest effectiveness.

When playing overdo it, you need to have a plan for your next two turns.  Past that becomes difficult to plan for, and the self-harm gets prohibitively nasty, considering the other ways KNYFE has of hurting herself.  when you play it, you are essentially delaying your card play for a round.  Every round after that is a bonus- thats why I like to keep it around for two rounds- the first gets your delayed action, the second is a bonus.

 

Here's a few examples of how to use it to the greatest effectiveness:

Lets start with "Primed Punch"-

this is fantastic as a power if you have any sort of buffs, and as a delayed-action one shot.  You can play it on one turn, then detonate it at the start of the next turn for a large burst of damage.

How it works with "Overdo it": Because you can choose to detonate Primed punch at the Start of the turn, you can play it first, detonate, then play another card.  this is great when you really need to take out a specific minion that is providing damage resistance (like a Gene-bound guard), so that you can maximize your play-phase card (like Incidental contact).

 

Lets continue with "Flawless Execution"

this ends up being way more useful than you'd think as a bonus card.  Combined with Amplified combatant or incidental contact, it can mow down hordes of Low-HP creatures (including Unity's bots and heroes if you use Incidental contact carelessly...).  It also works very nicely with the Servo guantlet or battlefield XP.

Why it is useful to "Overdo it" with this card: Flawless Execution is one of those cards that will only become useful when played in conjunction with other things.  as such, it is rarely going to be top choice for your play phase- but as a bonus card, you can start to see the appeal.  You play it, then the next card which will take advantage of it.  And after that, its now out so all of your stuff is nastier.  this is one of the reasons I like to keep Overdo it around for 2 rounds- this is an ideal second-round combination.  

 

Taking it to ridiculous extremes...

the biggest appeal of Overdo it is that it allows you to engage in ridiculous start-of-turn shenanigans. Here is my favorite usage of it

Start of turn :

Greater good- play battelfield XP.  Use battlefield XP.  Play Greater good, play Battlefied XP.  Use Battlefield XP.  Play primed punch, detonate primed punch.

Play phase: Battlefield XP.  Use battlfield XP.  Play wrecking strike or amplified combatant.

I tend to mix this up, depending on what cards I have.  sometimes Overdo it is fantastic for putting out the Servo-gauntlet or a focusing conduit blade so that during the play phase you can get crazy with the battlefield XP.  Sometimes its great for taking out a specific person who is fouling up my chains (like V5 Baron Blade's impulsion beams), or who is protecting everyone else.

 

Overall:

I only play it when I have a goal, when I have a potential chain in hand, when I have lots of cards, or when healing is available.  I keep it out for 2-3 rounds (longer if healing is available), because it really pays for itself in the second (and third) round. It is a superb card to get timeshifted or from the Scholar.  

Potential pitfalls:

KNYFE can run out of cards if you don't have battlefield XP/greater good chains (or other players helping with cards).  It can get prohibitively nasty when Legacy is around helping with damage.  

 

I can totally understand why it appears to be underpowered or not useful.  There will be times when you absolutely don't want to play it. But there will be times when you wipe out everything on the board, or pummel a single target into oblivion in a single turn.  Especially when you are fighting the V5, who have lots of targets who you'll want to get rid of!

19

Some people have mentioned the card name "Battlefield XP".  Is that XP = Experience Points?  Is KNYFE an RPG geek?  Or does FILTER talk about their agents' careers as if they were WOW characters?  Someone who has seen the deck, help me make sense of this.

Personally I love it for clearing out Voss's minions if I don't have a Taiaha, but I have suffered the downside on occasion.  Cards with "Power: Destroy this Card" might as well not, for the most part; when would you ever not want to use a different power instead?

Then again they make excellent fodder for Haka's discard mechanic

Exactly.  In my Magic-playing days, I loved discard-powered effects because they let me get away with including more situational cards in my deck, which I wouldn't tolerate if they couldn't be used to good effect somehow.  Does KNYFE have any discard power?

20

Battlefield Experience, I think?