Lamest Games

Mostly, SOTM is awesome.  Mostly.  But every once in a while, things line up in such a way as to make the game a cakewalk, a foregone conclusion, a frustrating grind, or just a pointless waste of effort.  This is obviously not optimal, and so I think we should brainstorm corrective measures.

Here are two examples from my experience of games that went to an unsatisfying place fast.

1.  My first battle against The Dreamer; I had taken five heroes, not knowing this would make her meaner, and within about four rounds all of my heroes had been completely destroyed, except for Fanatic (it might have been Aegis that saved her, I'm not sure; the game also included Haka, O-X, AZ and Tempest, so her HP was pretty much in the middle).  But turn 1 End of Days had wiped out the initial Projections, leading to the quick flip, and once there were enough new Projections out and they'd butchered Tempest, he used his incap ability to give Fanatic back End of Days.  That one card pretty much single-handedly nerfed what was otherwise an overwhelming force; under other circumstances, EoD pulling out a last-second win against overwhelming odds might be awesome, but without the need to kill an actual villain after the minions were defeated, it was just too pathetic, and I've sworn never to use Fanny against Dreamy again (unless I just get really sick of losing to her).

2.  In one particular game where I was introducing a new player to the game, I was bored with the standard "newbie" villains like Baron Blade, Omnitron and arguably Plague Rat, and tried one other who I regarded as fairly easy: Spite.  However, my friend who usually plays Fanatic was trying out Visionary that week, and he opened on 2x Twist the Ether, putting both on Spite, and that was pretty much game; once he flipped, Spite could never deal any damage at all due to the low H value, except for 1 point getting through whenever we used a Power thanks to Compound Xi.  So he just stood there while we took him apart bit by bit.  I've also seen pre-flip Spite neutered for several full turns by having one member of the party tank while immune to damage; Nightmist can do this, as can Visionary, and a Scholar with multiple Flesh to Irons could even do it while retaining the ability to play cards.  Since turning off his damage also turns off his healing, non-advanced Spite is a pushover with such a tank in the party, and even his advanced version is beatable...while under other circumstances, that advanced healing means you might as well not even try damaging him until he flips (unless your damage output is truly spectacular).  Either way, such a sense of pointlessness is something we should try to avoid in our games.

Example 2 has rather led me to the conclusion that Spite is really not a very well-designed villain deck, compared to most of the others, and tends to lead me to not want to play him very often.  The Agent of Gloom of course helps considerably by offering an alternative, but he's still saddled with a villain deck where a lot of the card plays are blank and almost none of them are highly consequential.  I find myself wondering how the general concept of "transhuman serial killer" could be better executed....the very same set that contained Spite also contained the Chairman and the Matriarch, with all of them being highly experimental designs for bringing an unorthodox battle scenario to life, and the other two worked brilliantly.  Two out of three ain't bad, I suppose, but I still feel like it'd be nice to be able to "fix" Spite, and similar adjustments could be made to other lacking villains, such as Ambuscade and Kismet.

(We could kind of overlap here with the Playtesting Nostalgia thread, if anyone here has been around for so long that they remember the process of getting Spite, Chair and Matty to their current states.  It's entirely possible that Spite was just as much of a beast as the other two at one point in his design, and I'm curious whether that changed, and if so why the others were allowed to remain as fearsome as they are, while he was nerfed so significantly.)

Anything with Spite in my experience.  I've never had a fun game against him (and it appears early on that the most recent PBF game will be no different)

Thank the all loving great spagehtti monster in the sky for Emo Spite!

I've definitely had more lame games with Spite than any other character.  Either he ends up nuke healing himself while I fail to get out any good cards, making the game last obnoxiously long, or I shut him down completely and beat him laughably fast.

Thankfully, I've had a lot more fun with Zombie Spite recently.

Other than Spite, my most lame games came from Omnitron when I was learning the game, back before I understood that he plays a card during his Play phase.  I kept thinking "Oh, he only plays cards on one side and recycles them from the trash on the other side."  I'd beat him while taking barely a scratch.

But of course, a proper fight against Omnitron is a lot of fun, even if its still on the easy side.

my problem with modifying Spite is that his flavour is really good, his mechanics are the ones lacking a bit. I'm not sure about which would qualify as lamest game for me, but from memory 2 games against Spite after he flipped where I knew Heroes would win but it would just take forever for it. Another one would be regular Gloomweaver. Games against Chairman and Matriarch have been frustrating, but not really lame.

I'm strongly inclined to suspect that >G chose Spite to get a promo because he was kinda lame…or perhaps he was intentionally made kinda lame because they intended to give him a promo later.  Same for Gloomweaver, except there he's not lame so much as just weak (although I do think Gloomy is lame in one sense…he almost never flips, and yet when he does flip, it's not that big a deal); they probably intentionally made him underwhelming at first, so that they could do the Skinweaver thing later and be more impressive.

The mechanics were what I had in mind to change.  Perhaps instead of just automatically getting a second card play each turn, all Victims ought to give him a play, so that he'd always do something relevant on his turn.  And his Advanced text on side 1 definitely needs to change.  Then on Side 2, he's a complete robot, and deals only 2-damage instances which are too easy to shut down.  I'd have him maybe reveal a card, and do one of three things depending on whether it's a Victim, a one-shot, or Collateral Damage.  Also he needs to have some way of dealing with Ongoing or Environment cards, which can shut him down too completely otherwise.

Plague Rat is another villain I'd like to see adjusted to remove his glaringly obvious weaknesses.  I love how hyper-violent he is, but very early in my time playing the game, I read a game report about him on Mars where Meteor Storm came out, and he couldn't remove it, so the heroes just ignored him while they built up to OHK him after finally removing it.  That is a lame game, though PR is generally not lame otherwise.  But if he was up against Visionary, Nightmist and Scholar, lameness could definitely occur as he's just incapable of getting any damage through and Infections don't actually do anything.  (Heck, Scholar would be able to use PR's flipside ability to bite his comrades harmlessly and regain HP.)  This is bordering on comical rather than lame, but still mostly that.

So if this OT is ok, I'll continue a bit here. Afterall variants is what I most talk about in thsese forums. Thing is, in this game mechanics are tightly related to theme. For example, Spite flipping when 5 drugs cards are out  strongly represents him flipping out, so changing that mechanic changes that part of the theme. So when doing changes I aim to the least possible. What I tried some time ago and didn't work was having him flip when H drug cards were out and then still keep revealing cards and only playing new drugs. The reasoning was that what I don't like about Spite is that the first half barely matters (can't stick damage on him, too much healing) if you can set up to beat his static second half. I feel he should feel like a race between saving victims and delaying drugs, that once he is turned into his monster side you have to finish him off fast or he'll overrun you eventually.

I think I could try this... changing his healing on his first side to: "The first time Spite deals damage..." so there's not THAT much healing on his first side (basically just H-1 from his card and not also from all the Victims and drugs) and changing his monster side to "Whenever a Villain Card would be played, instead put it under this card. Spite deals the Hero Target with the lowest HP X projectile damage, where X is the number of cards below this card". That forces you to take action early and dispatch him fast once he flipped.

About Plage Rat: every Villian has some case where they are a dud. I think it's perfect he doesn't do stuff with the Environment, he is a Rat.

Yeah they definitely could have done more with the Infection status.  A really cool idea, and I'm sure they didn't want to dive in too deep with their first expansions, but I have a feeling if they remade Plague Rat today they could make the mechanic much more intricate.

The problem I have with Plague Rat is that he almost never flips (much like Gloomy).  He really has nothing in his deck but Infection cards and pure damage (that usually get out Infection cards faster), so if you find a way to gimp his damage and have plenty of Ongoing destruction, he is laughable (and even if he manages to flip, he won't stay flipped for more than a turn).

Just last night I did a round against PR with Haka, Visionary, OmniX, and Fanatic.  Haka and Fanatic completely shut down his damage output (Oh Ground Pound, you sexy beast) while Visionary and OmniX whacked the Infection cards as soon as they came out.

Sure he does H damage when you destroy an Infection, but Visionary always had a Projection out, OmniX had his Toxic reduction plating, and Haka/Fanatic can take the damage.

I'm sure there are some team setups that have more trouble, but overall, once you know what he has in his deck, controlling him is far too easy.

Actually, Gloomweaver's initiall incarnation during Playtesting was notoriously hard. So difficult in fact, the story goes, that he kept getting chipped away with the nerf chizzle until we got what we have today. Gloomy was brought up a few times during Vengeance playtesting actually to try and avoid the same pitfalls with the V5 (and I believe we were very successfull in that regard).

Huh. My experience of Plague Rat is that he almost always flips. Killing one of his Infections is simply too painful on his front side, unless you can prevent him from dealing damage entirely.

Plague Rat usually flips for me as well, and early.  A Ravage on the first few turns pretty much cinches the deal.  We usually hold our ongoing destruction until he flips, nuke all the Infections at once while he's not dealing revenge damage, and then move on.  Ideally he's only on his filthy vermin side for one turn. Honestly I don't think his deck needs any work, except perhaps for a way to get Infections out of the trash.

 

Also, Envisioner, you seem to be forgetting that Spite converts the environment into pain with Mind-Phyre and Lab Raid.  The environment doesn't shut him down in the slightest, it only makes him worse.  Good ongoings can still hurt him, but only if you can keep ahead of PL531.

We fought Rat a few days ago and won with two incapped heroes (Adept and Jim) letting the Scholar heal (via direct incap ability in the case of the Adept, while I think Jim just let him use a power) so that he could plink away with the two Energy forms he had out. A Liquid form came out at some point as well, so the Scholar basically won via healing :D.

Generally we find Rat can be quite tricky due to the constant damage being dealt, especially as most of it is irreducible. We rarely destroy Infection cards - we don't really consider it worth doing so for the resultant pain on Rat's front side, and are usually pretty far through the game by the time he's flipped so we just hold on and kill the bugger. Having Jim in the party always helps - he really is an epic death machine against Rat, even with no external damage buffs. Add in someone like Legacy and it's just fantastic :D.

I think our lamest was game involving Legacy, Wraith, and Absolute Zero vs. Voss in Insula Primalis.  He had a terrible draw early (lots of AE minions and Guards, but both BCs I think).  The end result was that Wraith died, and both Legacy and AZ were at about half.  Then the volcano came out.  Legacy had out Danger Sense, and AZ, well, is AZ.  As a result, we spent the next several rounds have Legacy Galvanize and then motivationally charge whatever minion came out, and AZ did his thing with the fire damage.  We even left out one fire minion, so that Voss never flipped.  It was both awesome and incredibly lame :)  (Especially for the Wraith player who could just use her incapacitated side).

He doesn't always have those cards; he can still end up suffering major pain from something like Oppressive Smog (no healing for you!), Mongolian Death Worm (there are no other targets, so he's nearly always one of the bites, and if Nightmist is tanking with Mistform, the other bounces off her), or Atlantean Font of Power (he gets a Victim card half the time, while everybody else gets free awesome, and has nothing to shoot at but him and maybe a Kraken).  And frankly I'm always happy when Mynd-Phyre (yes they used Xtreme Kool Letterz in place of both "I's") comes out, because it usually deals no more damage than Demon's Kiss and it eliminates the distraction of the environment, ensuring that the heroes can focus fire on Spite.

We had a pretty lame game against zombie Spite tonight.  Now its the first time we played him so maybe we did it wrong.  We got him to flip right away from a lucky draw of victims so he only had two drugs face up.  The first turn after he flipped we pulled all the victims out from the safe house.  He never flips up any more drugs or goes back to his other side once he hits his second side.  As a result after we pulled all the victims out most of his attacks only hit for 1-2 points. One stun bolt a turn meant he could barely touch us on his second side.

 

The lamest games I've played involve Lead from the Front mixed with Evolution.  "Hey, do you just want to completely avoid one of the main mechanics of the villain while we uterly destroy them?"

Normally, I love Chairman battles (And when I say love, I mean completely hate. WAY. TOO. HARD.), I kind of don't like it how easily he is neutered by the Legacy Lead From The Front and Next Evolution combo. Once we get that combo out, it is basically game over. Of course, this is easily avoided by not using Legacy, but still.

Exactly, we have a soft "No Legacy" policy in general, but some times with new players they want to use him.  One group of fairly new players (I think it was their fourth game) asked for a hard villain so I grabbed Chairman, the new guy to the group who had never played before grabbed Legacy.  Well, about round 3 or 4 he had Lead+Evo out and we steam rolled.  The were all like "I thought that was supposed to be hard" and the new guy was especially not impressed.  I just had to tell them that Legacy screwed it up.

I had a game the other night that was just... miserable.  We were fighting Apostate with Tachyon, Rook City Wraith, Mr. Fixer and O-X.  We were also in the Pike Industrial Complex but that did basically nothing the entire game.  Things started out okay but on the second turn Apostate got Profane Summons and dropped the worst of his relics on us.  Everything had DR and then a Relic Spirit popped out and it was pretty much over.  Our Fixer and O-X might have been able to help but the Fixer player was using his deck for the first time and literally did nothing but play Tool Box every turn and the O-X player was on a good roll until the Apocalypse card dropped and no one could stop it.  The game was not fun.

Games that involve The Visionary tend to be lame if she gets set up right, because she can completely gimp the villain to a hilarious degree.  Don't get me wrong, I love the Visionary, but I tend not to play her when around new players (unless I know that person would be into deck manipulation, then it's cool to demonstrate her power).

One game, I completely shut down Apostate with Twist the Ether by feeding all his damage into Absolute Zero and changing it to cold/fire.  AZ stayed at the highest HP since he was nuke healing every villain turn while everyone else just picked away at Apostate.  You can do a similar set up with TtE and Ra if you have Flesh of the Sun God out.  Plus with her ability to scry the decks, she ensures that no surprises come up to ruin your day (we kept Apocalypse nice and buried).

Overall the Visionary is awesome and sometimes its fun to completely leg sweep the bad guys, but man she can really turn a game into a cake walk.

Given that decks are balanced internally and not externally, there is always going to be something that totally breaks a certain other thing.

 

 

And that is just the manner of the game. Randomizer for the win. 3 Heroes, random, versus random at random.