Game-wide variant that I still haven't give too much thought of what problems it could cause.
Change the rule about Limited cards to add that if you play a Limited card during your play phase AND you already have a Limited card
with the same name, the played card goes to the trash and you draw a card.
This is for the corner-case where you are playing a hero that wants to use his power for the turn, doesn't have a decent card to play for the turn,
has a hand full of stuff he already has in play, is hoping to draw some particular card for his tableau and (usually) can't convert cards to other things. This
is a bit better for heroes that have cards that can fetch their limited card from the discard.
So, is there any concern of how some hero could break this? (I found no obvious one)
10 radiant damage to the first that guesses which hero inspired this idea.
I am just trying to think this through. So what you are saying is that if you don't have a card to play, but you have a power you want to use, you can draw another card. So instead of choosing between 1 power and 1 card vs 0 powers and 2 cards, you want to have the option of having 1 power and 2 cards. So essentially you want to change the rule from: "if you skip a play and a power phase draw an extra card" to "if you skip a play phase, draw an extra card." Yes, you have to discard a limited card for it to work, but I think this is the idea behind it. I don't think it will break anything, but it might take away some interesting choices.
You can just make the rule as follows: "If you draw a limited card that is already in play, discard it and draw again."
I would guess Expat, where you just drew a gun you already had down.
EDIT: Actually, it would completely change Bunker, as it would make Upgrade mode and Recharge Mode pointless. You can stay out of any mode and have 2 options: 1) use a power and draw 2 cards. 2) Draw 3 cards. Yes, you would have to discard something, but it wold be completely worth it to try and find something you are missing. Bunker's entire gameplay would be based around this rule.
"May discard it and draw again". Leaving out the "may" makes it mandatory, and that would most certainly cause many problems. I know this is about house rules, but I think the distinction is important enough to point out.
True. "May" would be more inline with the original intent. However, this might be more balanced. It forces you to decide before the game, whether or not you shold have an extra card incase the card is destroyed, or the ability not to have a "dead" card in your hand. it would change how limited cards are viewed.
EDIT: Although, if you don't have the "may," heroes like Bunker and NM will run into huge problems. Which is probably what Foote meant. facepalm
Well, the idea is it to cost you the play phase (just to avoid cases of when it's played out of turn) AND have something down. So you can only start discard Grenade/Flak/Plating/Ammo Drop/Gatling/Cannon if you have the repeated one in your hand (so to be super clear, if you have Plating down, you can only play->discard another Plating from hand to draw). So you can't get the extra draw from not doing play/power since you are doing your play phase.
Just went through Spiff's chars list: the one that has the most Limited cards is Legacy with 7. Wouldn't have guessed it ever. And sure wasn't looking to 'benefit' him with this rule.
You keep all your HP Pydro.
Wouldn't of guessed Bunker, since each of his cards in hand are worth 2 damage.
I understand that you need the card down. The issues isn't with the play phase, its with the power phase. If you weren't going to use a power anyways, you just draw 2 cards without discarding. What this rule does is that if you have nothing to play (becuase you already played that card), it allows you to draw 2 cards and use a power, instead of having to choose between 1 power and 1 card or 2 cards. But as I said, this would completely change Bunker's game and approach to his deck.
Uhm... not following on your point on Bunker. Using this rule does not increase your hand size, you do a discard 1 Limited - draw 1. And you can only use it with the right Limited card. So say turn 1 you drop Flak Cannon, you then have only 2 cards in the deck that allows you to use this variant. And you are giving up your play phase for it. I mean, your hand needs to really suck IMO for it to be worth it. You are right in that it speeds your deck, but doesn't increase hand size which is key to fuel Omni-Cannon / Gatling Gun.
You are right that this variant is a superior choice over passing Play/Power to draw an extra card, if speeding your deck is more important than increasing hand size (usually is though). Passing Play/Power increases your hand in 2. Not playing a card / using Limited variant increases hand in 1. Still the circumstances that need to happen (have a Limited card in play, and a copy of it in hand and nothing else worth playing more) should be rather rare. Maybe it's not and I'm off here...
Let's see some better wording...
"If you play a Limited card during your play phase and it get's discarded because there is already a copy of that card in play, you may draw a card."
I read your guide on Bunker and I don't share all your points explained there. Maybe that's part of the different views. IMO Bunker's best play is converting cards into damage with Omni-Cannon then with Gatling Gun, then Turret Mode.
I think it is hard to argue that any Hero has a "best play" in a game that is as wildly situational as SotM is.
Omni Cannon is worth about 6 damage max per turn it is out and assuming you have the cards in hand to fuel that. Turret Mode + Grenade Launcher is more damage per turn when there are 3 targets and equal damage when there are only 2.
Honestly, I don't really follow you here. Are you saying you hould always keep drawing cards until you find Omni-Cannon? Recharge Mode and Omni-Cannon are the best setup? Most of what I wrote about was just numbers, showing that you won't do as much damage if you wait a turn or 2 to play extra cards, and just to make sure that if you do, you have a way to make up the damage,
Let me explain what I mean about Bunker. Bunker starts with 4 cards, no matter what they are, and plays one, then draws 2. If he gets a duplicate, he can discard it to draw 3, and hopefully get what he wants. If he doesn't he can play another card to build himself up, and give himself more possibilities to discard later. Basically, he can slowly build up his board as he is looking for cards, and the more he plays, the easier it is for him to draw 3, and look for the single card he needs. This is just better than Recharge Mode.
In Recharge Mode he will only draw 2 cards the first turn, same as normal, but he has once less card down. Next turn he will draw 3, but he can;t play anything. This will keep going on. He will draw cards, but nothing will be down. He might end up with 1 extra card a turn, but the other method runs through his deck just as fast to find th card he needs, and it gives him a good position once he finds it.
It also eliminates Upgraed Mode, since he is playing 1 card a turn anyways.
EDIT: I didn't write this as a way to say your idea is bad. Any idea that amkes the game better for you is great. I was only pointing out a case where it might make you rethink how a character plays.
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Not quite, of course you need to contribute to the team. But if you get Omni-Cannon while you are playing standard and get a drawing engine going (or lots of cards in hand), going that route has shown better results for me than otherwise. I know Turret Mode with Flak+Grenade+Gatling is superior in damage dealt, but the time it takes to get it working is really long (or I have been just really unlucky with him overall). They are in a sense opposed objectives, since Omni just eats up all your cards (unless it's super Ammo Drop time).
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Recharge Mode, Heavy Plating and Omni-Cannon: yes, IMO it's his best set-up strategically, in a vacuum. Of course it depends on the Villain+Environment+Team what you should be doing, but the -2 damage taken plus the 6 damage loaded is really really good.
About Recharge Mode: you are not taking into account the -1 damage taken. And that Recharge Mode gives 1 extra card in hand, Limited variant gives 1 discard/1 draw. It's for cycling, so you are giving up hand increase for it which could mean that you are giving up on 2 (future) damage for it. I do think there is an actual trade-off there. Early on you would like to use the variant the most, but it's also when it's less likely to be usable. Later on, if you are converting cards to damage (and value as highly as I do) you'll more likely be looking for the extra cards.
It also eliminates Upgraed Mode, since he is playing 1 card a turn anyways.
Now you lost me here. I would think that you'd argue that it could make Upgrade imba since you could draw 3 cards in this mode (discarding 2). And that Upgrade Mode let's you get the Limited repeat faster too. Why are you saying the contrary? (the "1 card a turn anyways" I didn't get).
PS: I am looking actually for that, show me what is wrong with this variant. I still need a bit of convincing on Bunker of what you are saying.
PS2: List of Limited cards for Bunker: Ammo Drop, Flak Cannon, Grenade Launcher, Gatling Gun, Heavy Plating, Omni-Cannon.
A lot of my guide was about if you had access to all the cards, what is the "ideal" setup. Practically speaking, this doesn't happen. Every game, Bunker will be a little different, since he will always start playing 1 card and drawing 2 (unless he has Recharge Mode). It is those first few plays that will always determine where Bunker is headed. You drop down Flak Cannon or Grenade Launcher, you are already working on the Turret setup. Drop down Omni-Cannon or Gatling Gun, your approach changes. If all you have are those and Recharge Mode, it is probably worth it to use those for a bit until you get the right cards.
Omni-Cannon doesn't really have a much shorter setup. If you aren;t in Recharge Mode, you are only getting 4 damage a turn (not that great, and it stalls your hand just like Turret Mode). If you wait for Recharge Mode, you are now at a 2 card combo. If you wait for Heavy Plating as you suggested, you are now at a 3 card combo, just like Turret Mode. However, you only have 2 Omni-Cannons in the deck, so the combo is a little harder to get and does less damage overall. However, as I said above, it really depends on what you put down on your first few turns anyways. Unless you have a very specific strategy against a specific villain, it is usually best to play with what you have, and not go looking for the cards before you do anything.
OK, I will disagree with you there. i think it is a valid setup, and you can use it to kill some villains rather quickly, but I find Turret Mode to be much better. Not only are you doing more damage a turn, but you also have some side damage to kill other things. Also, Turret Mode can have -1 damage anyways, and you can heal. The -2 only comes from Heavy Plating. If you have it great, but it is usually not worth it to wait around for it. Bunker has an inhouse heal. Unless you know you are up against a lot of damage, especially a lot of 1 point instances (e.g. the Matriarch), I will usually not wait for the DR until a little later in the game.
Offensive is usually the best defense here. The -2 damage might help Bunker, but being able to kill the target can save everybody's health.
To me, there are also so many times I just get messed over by focusing on Omni-Cannon. Just got 30 damage to kill Blade, and he plays a MDP. Well that plan just went out the window. Either you have to wait for someone else to take it out, or you have to waste the whole thing. This happens with other villains where there is a single target that really needs to be taken out, but you don't want to waste the big Omni-Cannon. If you stayed in Recharge Mode, you don't have many options.
-1 damage doesn't matter much, since this strategy will have you playing Heavy Plating rather quickly anyways. I did mention that you end up with less cards, but the point of the rule isn;t to get more cards into your hand, it is to get different cards. In that sense, you have the same exact amount of chances as recharge Mode. once you get all the key cards for whatever setup you want anyways, you will do that and not use the new rule.
The biggest advantage of not being in any mode is that you are not locked into a specific path. You can instantly go from play 1 draw 2 to play 1 power 1 draw 1. By staying in no mode, you can actaully use that Flak Cannon if needed 1 turn, which you can't do in Recharge Mode or Upgrade Mode. Furthermore, in no mode, you can draw 3 cards if you only have 1 of the same, while in Upgrade Mode you can only draw 3 cards if you have 2 of the same. Ok, there might be sometimes where it is helpful. However, you lose the ability to help out for a turn if you need to, and each turn you wait and you play a card, Upgrade Mode becomes less useful. if it appears in your opening hand it might be good, but if you only draw it on your 3rd turn, there might not be too many other cards to draw.
EDIT: Decommissioned Hardware will also get you an extra card.
You're adding an inherent card drawing mechanism for all the heroes? Why? What's the point of it, is it change just so you get more options? Doesn't this change the very nature of the heroes, all of them now have a way of cycling cards quicker, doesn't that 'devalue' heroes/cards which allow you to draw cards? Tachyon (arguably the one who should/does have a power like this) is going to get the lest benefit out of this, she has only two Limiteds- HUD Goggles and Pushing the Limits.
Wouldn't this also eliminate the need for "do nothing draw 2" option? Isn't that meant to be part of the choice, help now or help later?
You won't always have a duplicate card of a limited in play. Even when you do, discarding is still some cost unless you are completely safe from card destruction and discarding (though a relatively minor cost).
This option is definately a pure boost to the heros, since it is just one extra option and there will be some scenarios where cycling a duplicate limited card is better than playing any other card. I think it is situational enough that it will be a relatively minor boost though.
@Pydro: Ok, we have a different look on Bunker there. My look on him is that he opens drawing cards while playing some equipment. But if he puts down Flak or Grenade, his drawing engine stops and switches for damage (you usually want to start shooting once you get one of those). Then getting the cards needed to put down Turret Mode gets slower. OTOH, if you play pure draw, laying down Auxiliary Power Mode (cycle it with Decomissioned Hardware) and then play Omni (if it appears, of course) has a better flow and easier to get down. So although it takes as many cards to lay down the combo, withe the Omni path you draw more cards giving you higher chances of getting it in less plays (note that Gatling Gun works as a good substitute while drawing cards, so you are not just looking for Omni).
About the -2 reduction: one thing I have not wrapped my head around still is how to value damage reduction changing X damage to 0 damage. I just know it's really valuable since it changes the activation from advancing the game for one side to not doing it. The -2 reduction makes that happen a lot more often than -1. Now I know that you can't do it against every Villain but against the ones you can do it, it's usually more than worth it. You mentioned Bunker can heal, I think damage prevention is better (again, in general) than his healing since it doesn't take a power for you to get the effect.
On Upgrade Mode: I already thought it sucked so I'm ok with it sucking a bit more. You are still giving up plays&cards for cycling though. Only worth it if you had the perfect set-up to got into a different Mode next turn (or super weird double one-shot play).
Anyway, we are running in circles, you valuing the cycling of the variant higher than I value the extra cards for Bunker. I did five test-draws to see how many times it would trigger within the first 5 turns for Bunker on the Vassal module (so no shuffling bias): 0 uses. Had 1 chance to use it, with a Heavy Plating down and 1 in hand, but doing it would have meant passing on Flak and Gatling the following turns (and then I drew Turret). I do think that Vassal was happy to give me super draws (drew Turret / Omin before 3rd turn on each run) but should be enough to show it's not something you'll be using every single game as an exploit.
And you are right about Decomissioned Hardware, missed that. Still... it's even actually harder to have that trigger the variant, since you need one Limited in play and in discard. And I'm not sure in that case how valuable it is, either my hand needs to really suck and be sure there's no equipment destruction.
And there's still 9 radiant damage available for the lucky guesser (Pydro reduced it by 1).
Let's see... I don't know if it will "break" heroes or the game, but it will make some strategies easier for some heroes. It's a way to "cycle" faster through your deck in search for a given card, like a "trump" card (Wraithful Retribution, for instance, or Savage Mana) or "just the right card" (Mr Fixer, Expat, Legacy, etc). Or to find the "missing card in my setup" (Bunker, Legacy...)
It gives a little more "control" on how fast you can find an expected card.
The only "price" being that you become more vulnerable to villains/environment that can destroy your set up, as you discarded your replacement cards.
I am not sure if the impact will be big or not, but it will be advantageous for some heroes.
Whether the impact is big or small, does a rule that boosts some heroes 'lots' while boosting others 'not-at-all' sound balanced?
I see what you're going for, I just don't see why this rule is the answer or how this rule makes it a meaningful choice if you 'absolutely need' that card you're digging for.
@Matchstickman : I don't think it's the answer to anything, but the fact that one player finds it dull to not being able to play a card on a specific turn because it's a Limited, and looked for a way to use these cards. It's not a variant I feel interested in, but if PePe likes it and wants to play with it, I don't think it will ruin the game, even if it unbalances it a little. But I'll confess I only did browse fast through your debate, and may have missed important considerations.
Nah, it's mostly just nitpicking on Bunker's game, nothing more on the core of the variant.
And really, this variant is a super corner case to get out 'really sucky hand' faster.
@Matchstickman: I'd argue that having Limited Equipment/Ongoing cards is an inherent weakness since it restricts how you can play. More so for the heroes that rely on this type of card to get their game going.
Since there are no more takers, the hero that prompt me for this was Zero. Had 3 consecutive games of 'Module Flood' with him. Each game I was "awesome, early modules!" to then just draw more modules and realignment cards. I deemed healing for 1 was worth it for the team but did nothing more for too many turns. He's the guy that has the most repeats of the same Limited cards so the one that would be the most affected by it (and can fetch them from discard).
Bunker has been already extensively discussed. I'm guessing that Expat would follow in the list if she draws the same gun early. The rest seems to have a more varied card distribution to see it as a thing. Maybe Wraith.
Have yet to play with Nightmist, but looks like a candidate.
Btw, found out yesterday in a game with Zero that Unity makes this variant pointless really =)
One potentially risky thing would be salvage yard: that turns into a lot of free card draw for some heroes who have been discarding limited equipment to draw more cards.
What is sad is the heroes that seem to be most vulnerable to a hand full of repeat limiteds are also the ones that don't have discard/destroy for damage functions.
AZ, Legacy, Expat, they don't have anything to discard for. Bunker has Omni and Gatling, so those cards are worth saving with him, and Wraith has inventory barrage, so those two are better off, as is Tempest, but he doesn't seem to have as much of a problem (at least to me). Unity makes it a lot better, I love Expat-Unity, speed loading golems and the card that Unity has that lets you use a power at +2 damage (gah brains).
I haven't been having as many problems with heroes as I've been finding better partners for them, but random selection makes that a lot rougher.
I've been trying to make a list of Heroes and fit them into archtypes that really show their style and power level, so you could get a random hero, but within a certain scope. It isn't easy.