Ooo... Now do a Raptor Bot made from The Staff of Ra...
Nice cartoon!
I'm not seeing where Christopher said anything remotely like, "Unless it comes into play through alternate means."
I'm not seeing any confirmation of it going to the trash. Where are we getting that this statement is a hard and fast conclusion that "If a card that cannot be played is played it goes directly to the trash"? Just because that is what happens with a second copy of a Limited card already in play does not mean that that's what happens with Ammo or Bounties.
Where else will they go if you can't play them? There's nothing that would allow for it to be shuffled back into the deck. The card isn't being drawn, so it can't go into the player's hand. If it can't go into play because is needs an anchor, the only place remaining is the trash.
Or it could remain in a player's hand and just not be played. There are plenty of instances of "Hero cards cannot be played" in Sentinels. If a player can't play a card the precedent is that it isn't played. I'm not saying that that's what happens with Ammo and Bounties, but there are more options than "Of course it goes to the trash, because there's no other place it could go."
It's cool if you have a perspective on how you think unplayable Ammo and Bounty cards are resolved, but what Christopher has said doesn't say anything about the card going to the trash, and I think it's perfectly reasonable to clarify where they would go if played by force or choice.
I wasn't aware we were discussing at any point the card coming out of hand. If it comes out of hand, you are bound by the words of the card; "Play next to..."
If it is a forced play, then you're pretty much bound by the words of the card; "Play next to..."
Again, I'm not understanding what rule you're citing to come to that conclusion. From what Christopher said it sounds like the cards cannot be played if there are no valid targets in play. I'm trying to understand what happens when you are forced to play a card by another card's effect. If it's played from your deck does it go into your hand, the trash, or back on top of the deck? If it's from your hand is it just not a valid choice, a la "Hero cards cannot be played"? I'm not finding any rule of "Well, it goes to the trash" or "You're bound by the rules of the card."
I'm honestly still quite unclear of what you're trying to say about a card automatically going to the trash or being "Bound by the words of the card." Are you saying that an Ammo card forced into play automatically puts a Gun card out so that it can attach to it? Does Voss suddenly reveal cards until a Minion is in play so that "No Executions" be played by an Atlantean Font of Power? Does the card get played and immediately get destroyed? What exactly are you saying?
Again, I'm looking for citations, not interpretations. I understand that there are ways that we can interpret these situations using our own knowledge of how we play the game, but I'm trying to find the designer's ruling.
Reckless, you could have scholar put the top card ofa deck into play. If that happened when fighting miss info and there's no legal target for that bounty, what happens? I think that's the question. It's as fringe case as you can make, but I think that's what they want to know
So what has happened is a question was asked, debated, and then Christopher came in and answered, yet because of his wording we are left back at the original question.
Awesome.
So my opinion is. . . oh wait, we already did that.
I understand that. From what I could tell Greywind was attempting to answer the question based on his own interpretations (the Ammo/Bounty immediately going to the discard). My confusion came from the lack of citation or precedent for that claim and I was trying to understand how Greywind reached that conclusion.
I'm sorry. I'm applying common sense. Once a card is played, it resolves. If it cannot resolve (no gun available for Ammo or target legal for a Bounty), it would not magically revert to the deck. It wasn't a "Reveal". You don't get a free gun. You don't get to search the Environment or Villain deck to find a target for the Bounty. The card does not get reshuffled into your deck. It was played. It wasn't successful. It joins the rest of the played cards in the discard pile.
I'm sorry. I'm applying common sense. Once a card is played, it resolves. If it cannot resolve (no gun available for Ammo or target legal for a Bounty), it would not magically revert to the deck. It wasn't a "Reveal". You don't get a free gun. You don't get to search the Environment or Villain deck to find a target for the Bounty. The card does not get reshuffled into your deck. It was played. It wasn't successful. It joins the rest of the played cards in the discard pile.
Bounty cards are ongoing, they do not go to the trash unless they are told to. Ongoing cards remain in play. Ammo is Equipment, same thing for them.
There is no language that states "play this next to a target or destroy it"
If these cards could enter play without a target they would sit there until some outside force destroyed them.
But as Christopher said, they HAVE to be played with a gun or target to anchor them.
That doesn’t mean the answer is automatically “They enter play and are immediately destroyed.” They could just not be played at all. We don’t know the answer, so that’s why I say we ask Christopher.
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If these cards could enter play without a target
Why would they enter play to begin with? There are two possible ways to interpret "Play this card next to..."
1) This is part of the requirement for the card entering play. If there is no target, then the card never enters play. i would say it is obvious that the card goes to the trash, but I could at least see the question. If this is the correct interpretation, why isn;t it clear that it applies if it enters the game in another way? I can think of a few possible reasons. 1) This is the clearest and simplest wording. 2) Most of the time the cards enter play this way. 3) There is no other way to word it clearly without making it a trigger on entering play, which would have a whole new set of mechanics. For example, if it said "when this card enters play," effects that happen when a card is played will happen before this triggers.
2) "Play this card next to..." is a specific restriction on when the card is played. If the card is not being played, but enters the game another way, then this line is bypassed. However, this logic must be extended fully. Every time the card enters play in a different way besides being played, it will always bypass this line. This means that if you Timeshift a bounty, you completely skipp this line, and it will not be attached to a target.
There are only 2 possibly interpretations on the effect when the card enters play but is not played. 1) The "play next to a target..." is still a restriction, and it never enters play. 2) "Play next to..." is completely bypassed altogether (regardless if there are legal targets or not), and it will never be attached to a target. Consiering that I am fairly certian that the entire point of Ranger's Mark is to put a bounty from yuor trash onto another target (and is doesn;t specifically state this). I am of the opinion that #1 is the correct interpretation, and the bounty would never be in play to begin with, if there were no legal targets.
I thought this was kind of funny, so I am bringing it up. In the ST PT thread, Reckless had the same question regarding an original version of a card. Christopher's anwer:
I guess he wasn't able to avoid the question.
Oh yeah…that was me! What a fun coincidence!
You ruin everything, Reckless.