I just noticed a huge bug in how Omnitron is written. His text reads, in part: "When Omnitron is destroyed, remove Omnitron's Villain Character card from play. The Heroes cannot win until there are no Devices in play."
Clearly, the final sentence is meant to remain in force, even though the card it is written on has been removed from play. This sets a weird precedent. On the other hand, I can't think of a clearer way to word it, since most players (including me) do what seems to be the correct thing with this card. It took me ages to even notice there was a problem here.
Doing some searches on the spoilers, it appears that nothing else in the game *definitely* removes a card from "in play". Unforgiving Wasteland is an arguable edge case; with our current timing understanding, it would remove cards while they were stll in play. Anyone feel like arguing that when UF removes a card from the game, the text on that card stays in effect? I don't really think this is *right*, but I think it's a technically arguable position, and could lead to some even stranger edge cases than UF already produces.
A fix would be to write something on the Device cards themselves, but it would be a bit ugly. Let's just say Omnitron is injecting code into every other card =)
I see this as not necessarily that different than a one-shot that adds a bonus for a turn. The card's gone, the effects remain. It's certainly an oddity and I see the point, but we know what to do :)
It's not any odder than The Chairman being put into the villain trash and then shuffled into the deck and coming back out again after you've already beat him but The Operative is still out. That's one rule I don't play by because it's just silly, shuffling a character card into the deck.
Yeah, what Euguneruss said. It's like... say a villain card hits a target and has a "targets damaged by this card can't deal damage until the start of the next villain turn" rider. That effect persists even if the card that originally gave the effect is destroyed. Likewise, Omnitron has a "The heros can't win the game until all devices are destroyed" effect which triggers upon Omnitron's destruction, and persists, outside of the card's in-play-ness, until the ending condition is met.
But only the character card is removed from play - not the gameplay card where the sentence is written. There is no problem if you are using the normal sized cards for the villain, the original format. Only the oversized card causes problem, as it combines the two cards in one.
Both cards are Character Cards, Omnitron's text even says to remove Omnitron's Character Cards. Note the plural, so they are both gone. The word "until" is the key part here. One-shots like Mistbound, which stops cards from being played from deck until the start of her next turn. Even though the one-shot is no longer in play, there is a specific time frame it last. This is the same with Omnitron's text, the timeframe is when there are no devices in play, so the effect still carries until that condition is met.
You guys need to read the edge of the card. It helps if you use a micoscope. The edge clearly says "Omnitron's effects remain active when removed from play."
What if we said that "when this card is destroyed" effects persist after the card leaves play? It's a bit unusual, but the way we currently have damage timing organized, a card gets destroyed, then sticks around to trigger it's "on destruction" effect, and then goes to the trash (at which point all the other "on destruction" effects trigger) which is also a little unusal.
Now that I think about it, the current method has some problems. For example: If Bee Bot is destroyed, and in response destroys Blighted Streets, Blighted Streets will in turn play the top card of the Villain deck. If that card was Noxious Bite, Plague Rat would then deal damage to the lowest HP target - Bee Bot. This seems... non-intuitive.
The "When Destroyed" keeps Omnitron in play until the last effect is activated.
That effect activates When Omnitron is destroyed.
It lasts "until there are no devices left in play."
The Effect is "The heroes cannot win."
The card leaves play, but the effect is a triggered effect that has a clear cut start and end time. The effect is not static, so it doesn't end when the card leaves play.
The Operative's "Heroes cannot win" effect is a static effect, that effect enters play with her and leaves play with her. Omnitron's is different because it triggers with a set cutoff time.
Non-intuitive, but I believe correct. Certainly I'm already seeing that sort of thing happen in the beta for Mini-Pack 1 in the App. The simplest observable version of the issue is that a destroyed Explosives Wagon must always damage itself.
Perhaps the App should inspire the creation of a (previously unnecessary) rule: A target which has been marked "due to be destroyed" (step 16 of our timing) is no longer a valid target for new damage or destruction effects. Would that cause any problems?
Why can't we just say that "when this card is destroyed" effects stick around after the card that created is destroyed? That's what has to happen in Omnitron's case - if we apply it to every other case then we can just send destroyed cards into the trash immediately, making them clearly inelibable as targets.
I think that your solution would probably work just as well, but having the intermediate "due to be destroyed" step feels messy to me, and I want to get rid of it if we can. Our damage timing is already complicated enough as is.
That would be acceptable to me. Not really my call, though. Perhaps Christopher will read this thread and consider it (or MigrantP might bring it to his attention)...
It is an extreme edge case, and I can't even begin to explain that thematically. For the rareness of it it doesn't break the game, So I don't see a reason to re-write the game rules to account for it.