Star Wars: The Force Awakens Spoilers

Trajector, I totally agree that Ren's issue is an inability to control his power and not so much to do with a lack of power. He can stop a blaster shot in midair so he's clearly a bad ass! I'm wondering why his training hasn't been properly completed though, and how much of his turning to the dark side is self inflicted by his frustration with being unable to progress more rapidly.

A question here is whether Luke told him about Grandpa Anakin or he found out another way (maybe from Snoke, in a Palapatine-style "Oh, your parents and master never told you? Maybe they want to hold you back from achieving your true potential…").

I really hope that Rey is not a Skywalker; although I am aware that there was an EU thing with a brother and sister squaring off it would make no sense whatsoever in the context of this film. Even if Leia decided to hide Rey on Jakku (or ask that someone take her away to a mystery location in case her mind would be read at some point by Ren), they are all incredibly cool about her turning up again. Surely Leia would recognise who she was if she is indeed a relative? Not having an emotional reunion before she flies off to see Luke would be a dick move bigger than either the Luke/Leia reveal or the "what I told you was true, from a certain point of view" retcon in Empire.

Some more Easter Eggs have come up! During the scene where Rey touches the lightsaber and has a flashback there are a mixture of voices, two of which were provided by Ewan McGregor and Frank Oz. McGregor's voice was also blended with previous lines spoken by Sir Alec Guiness. So Rey has either had a vision of Luke's progress as a Jedi or Obi-Wan and Yoda have somehow reached out to her to encourage her to become a Jedi. A line that McGregor speaks is "Rey, these are your first steps" so it is more likely to be the latter! Apparently Frank Oz recorded some additional lines of dialogue so who knows if we might have some form of re-appearance of Yoda in a later movie, maybe talking with Luke about Rey's training or Ren's descent?

So I hanv't seen the movie just yet (going this week). But from what I am reading here, the it sounds more or less like the plot of episode IV point for point. I'm sure the movie will be enjoyable and awesome, but a rehashed narrative seems odd?

Definitely don't let that deter you. It's more of a "passing of the torch" movie than re-living the glory days. It's a way of establishing a new generation of characters, and to do that there will be a lot of setting up similar to IV. I think you'll find that a female protagonist, as well as Finn, are refreshing flavors of compelling heroes. And what's not to love about BB-8? :D

Yeah, I felt that the plot wasn’t really the most relevant thing about this film: It is trying to ti fill in the gap between Return of the Jedi and now, and it’s establishing a new set of characters and environments. I’m really looking forward to finding out what new directions Episode VIII will take.

It did feel a little odd the first time I saw it, but it isn't really the central plot that reflects the orignal film as much as the framing of events around it. Saw it again today with my son (not an addict, honestly, we were just concerned about checking out that 12A rating before we took him along!) and I have to say that the callbacks did not bother me at all. The central plot is definitely all about Ren's final descent into darkness, and Han's struggle to live up to being the hero - and not just literally, but also in terms of the pressure a father feels to be a hero for his son. I paid closer attention to this arc today and there is some great acting from Ford; when the conversation first turns to Luke you can see it has some effect on him; even though that relationship started with Luke being a kid and Han being the rogueish hero, by this point he clearly looks to Luke as the true hero. Luke managed to turn his father away from the dark side, but Han failed with his son. There is telling dialogue between Leia and Han where they talk about how they sent Ben to train under Luke when they realised that he was turning away from them, and that Leia thinks this was their mistake. You can also see further resolve in Ford's acting at this point and it's clear that this is the moment where he decides that he's going to somehow find and confront Ren. What I'm taking away from this now is that Ben likely knew who his grandfather was, had some force powers, but was tempestuous, angry, and jealous about being unable to wield the same power as Anakin, so they sent him to Luke and this became the root of a multitude of ills. Rey's dsicovery of her abilities feels more like a set up for the next couple of movies and a side plot in this one.

I did delete that post, because everytime I use white text it works all wrong and when I try to fix it it gets worse, and I'd rather bail on the conversation than spoil the movie.

Hey, I can open this thread now.

I have literally just finished watching it, I am still digesting what I have seen and will comment more this evening. I just wanted to clear out this thread from my "unread messages" bit on the forum!

I will say I am quite glad I did not run into any spoilers before viewing it.

You know this is specifically called out as a spoiler thread. I think it's ok to openly talk about it here

All I'll add to this thread is that I wish it wasn't going to be over a year before the sequel comes out.  This movie gave the right Star Wars feeling.  

Foote Theory time!

*Obivously this is a spoiler thread, so expect spoilers below*

So the largest question surrounding the films conclusion revolve around Rey, who she is, and who her parents were. Considering that "Force Awakens" as a film is largely a deconstruction and reassembled "A New Hope", it seems plausable that episode VIII could very well follow suit and mimic "Empire Strikes Back" in a significant way. That is to say, the moment where Luke says "Rey...I am your father" feels almost inevitable at this point. FA makes very little attempt about trying to hide this connection either, seeing as how Rey and Luke (even Anakin) grew up without real parents on a hot desert planet, how they all shared an unrivaled connection to the force, all uncannily skilled mechanics/pilots, how the old Skywalker lightsaber calls to Rey and how she has dreams of where Luke has been hiding...the list goes on. This connection, however derived and obvious, could still prove to be a satisfying one, playing the rivaly between cousins (Rey & Ben) each choosing a different path of the force to follow and the consequences those choices have on themselves and eachother, ultimatly ending in the defeat of Snoke and possibly a last minute redemption of Ben in a similar fashion to his idol Darth Vader at the end of "Return of the Jedi". The most classic Star Wars story reframed and repackaged and rhymed in a way that would make Lucas proud.

This sounds like a very probable story to me. A way to retell the original trilogy's story to a new generation with updated characters and effects and cameos enough to make the old heads droll while newer viewers get hooked. But is this same old story the story that should be told? Should Rey be a Skywalker?

Something that has always interested me about the Star Wars franchise is the impetus put on to find "balance in the force". It's not been explored deeply in the films, but it's something the Jedi order and the Sith lords fail to do misserably. One could argue that it's a driving factor of why the Jedi order gets torn down each time it gets built up in the EU (which by and large I understand is no longer cannon). Having nothing but Light Side or Dark side users and teachings is not balance, but both sides continue to strive to rid the other from existence. I bring this point up because with an entry to a new trillogy being "The Force Awakens", I think there is a lot of room to explore this pervasive Star Wars theme in greater detail. And in fact I think FA has laid the ground work to do just that. Consider our main antagonist and the inner struggle of Ben Solo/Kylo Ren. This is a guy who is desperatly trying to harness a power in the dark side that he seems to have little natural knack for. This internal struggle between the dark he desires and the light he can't get rid of will be a driving component of his character arc I feel. He kills his father in the hopes that the act will be the final straw on the camels back, but he still must pound his own wounds violently in order to force that connection to the dark side of the force. A redemption arc seems likely, or if the character can't be redemmed for his actions against his father, then you can be certain that the lightside of himself will show up down the road in some way. There will be a balance here. When he slides to far to one side I believe the scale will tip on the others favor and they have set up Ben's character in such a way that makes this possible.

But this story's new trillogy isn't going to be about Ben Solo, not really anyway. The story is clearly about Rey and what she will bring to the force. I have outlined how I think Kylo Ren's character could play out and how deep and interesting his character is in this film in relation to the balance in the force. I can't rightly believe that Rey's character will not be as deep and nuanced, because if she isn't she will not make a very good foil to constrast against Kylo's character that will likely prove to be a significant payoff further into the series. In other words, Rey will not play out to be just a pure white lightside user working totally within the realm of the "good and just" against the Empire. In the original trilogy movies, Luke had very brief spurts of dark side like tendencies, especially during the final fight with Vader during ROTJ with those screams and the overhead bashing motions while fighting. But for the mostpart, Luke represented all that was good, and was so strong with the light that he was able to redeem his father in the end. But thats because of how the Luke/Vader foil worked. I don't see Rey sharing that same relationship to Kylo considering his character.

So I said I had a theory. I believe Rey will be the one to end up truly bringing a "balance to the force". Anakin the "Chosen One"s Lightsaber does not call out to Rey because she is also a Skywalker, but because the Force reconizes her as the next to fullfil the prophesy after it has "awakened".

A Star Wars character from the EU that embodied balance was Revean from the KotR games, being a master of both the Light and Dark sides of the force. In the games, Revean had his memory wiped in the hopes that he might start fresh and make different choices than the path he was previously on. Rey also demonstrates signs of having her memory wiped. That combined with the fact that she is just so crazy strong in the force and in using advanced force techniques with no training could be a clue pointing to the fact that maybe she had been trained at some point but doesn't remember.

Could Rey have been a prodigy student gone horribly wrong? Maybe she was an original Knight of Ren? A first apprentice to Snoke. Luke, in a desperate attempt, wiped her memory and left her on Jakku with fake memories and pieces of a puzzle in hopes that this crazy talented individual would make different choices later in life that would lead her down the side of light? With Lukes failure with Ben and forcing a side on him, maybe Luke realizes that one must choose for themselves? This could tie into him looking for old Jedi temples, looking for ways to better train students from a time where force users were not as fractured into extreame camps?

Foote: I love it!

Makes me think: What if Kylo Ren IS the main focus of the new arc? What if his interaction with Rey as a foil causes him not to be redeemed to the Light Side, nor to fully embrace the Dark Side…but to be the first to successfully blend and meld both together into a synthesized, balanced Force? That would be an interesting way to go.

I really don't want Rey to be a Skywalker. I wouldn't be against it, but I think it's cooler if she's just naturally gifted with the Force, and the Force guided her to people who would know and understand what she was going through and help her achieve her destiny. She could still be a great foil to Kylo Ren. In fact, I think Ren would have more to think about if someone who wasn't a part of the same lineage as him was inheriting what he thought of as his birth right.

What I done thought, stupid nonsense that popped into my brain as I was watching.

Did I miss a thing? Who was the old guy right at the beginning who was a friend to the resistance? Was he an old character I've just blanked?

So that's Han and Leia's son... who the hell did he get that nose from?

When Ben was walking away from where Han was hidden I really really just wanted Han to shoot him in the back, I was hoping for a Leia wanting him back and Han knowing he couldn't style resolution.

If both Han and Ben know what is about to happen on the bridge (and it seems clear they do), who are they "talking in code" for? Is it us?

Who is Ben named after? Old Ben Kenobi? The assumed name he had that Leia never met him under? I didn't see a particular bond between Han and Ben for him to make the suggestion either.

What was Han's fixation on Chewie's Bow Caster? And in the 30+ years together Han's never tried it out before?

I liked Rey not playing up as the hero when she could have (e.g. the doors), a smart understated hero is something we haven't seen from a major picture in quite a while.

Please don't lessen Rey's accomplishments by saying she is a Skywalker, learning to do what she did because she had to do it to survive is far greater character growth than tapping into "the power of your ancestors".

I actually hope they are setting up a love triangle with Rey, Po and Fin, with Fin torn between Po and Rey. I think the imprinting on the first real person he encountered would be an interesting spin for this indoctrinated soldier.

Disappointed with BB8, it didn't do a lot other than make sight gags.

Ben, I thought his slashing up things had a dual purpose. He was angry, it gave him a greater connection to the dark side when he let loose and showed his lack of control. But I don't think his not being able to call the Lightsaber was to show his control, I think it was about the greater need/awakening Rey had, and that she was accepting/stepping into the hero role.

I like the ideas posited above about R2-D2's awakening, before I had thought it was lazy writing, now I am mildly hopeful it is more. I do however think it is lazy writing that they did not press R2 on the map when it is revealed he had it all along. If R2 had been around all this time and refused to reveal it to honour Luke's wishes that's one thing I can get behind, allowing for scenes later about from characters bemoaning/priasing his hindering of the rebelion/loyalty to Luke but to just go "Nope, going to sleep." is just lazy (as is calling it lazy twice).

So Leia's powers are limited to feeling when her loved ones are in trouble? ... and yet it doesn't help when Ben is falling to the dark side?

I would have much prefered the film ended with the close up of Rey holding out the LightSaber. The sweeping footage circling the characters was more showing off great camera angels than what it could have done for the story.

I think the bowcaster piece was meant more as a joke than anything.  I also agree that I hope Rey isn't a Skywalker but possibly a child of someone Luke attempted to train. 

I don't think that Rey could have been previously trained and mind wiped as she's only five or six when she's left with Simon Pegg on Jakku. Someone went To a lot of trouble to leave her there so they were either residents of Jakku who managed to get off world and left her behind, or people who knew she was strong in the force and hid her there. She talks often about 'people' coming back to get her, and never family coming back, so I am personally leaning toward the latter.

[quote="Trajector"]

Foote: I love it!

Makes me think: What if Kylo Ren IS the main focus of the new arc? What if his interaction with Rey as a foil causes him not to be redeemed to the Light Side, nor to fully embrace the Dark Side...but to be the first to successfully blend and meld both together into a synthesized, balanced Force? That would be an interesting way to go.

[/quote]

If Kylo was finally able to strike balance of the force, wouldn't that be a sort of redeemtion for him? He would finally have the one thing he desires most of all - Anakins Legacy. 

Another thing is that, if indeed JJ and Co. are planning on making Rey and Kylo character foils, then if Kylo is struggling to fight the innate lightside within him, we will likely see Rey try and fight off a growing inner darkness. This kinda goes back to my current working theory on Rey. She might be the product of large amounts of Dark Side energy, which would nessesitate the hypothesised mind-wipe and bread crumb trail that Luke may very well have done himself in hopes she can forge her own good path away from the sway of early indoctrination from either Jedi or Sith teachings. A story like that obviously draws a lot of paralells to Revan, but I think this new Trilogy is certainly drawing materiel from EU sources to rewrite them (Ben Solo / Jacen Solo) after dismissing them as non-cannon. And not for nothing, but Revan's story is one of the greatest Star Wars stories ever told outside of the original trilogy, so it makes sense to me to use the core of that narrative. This could become even more plausible if we find out that the planet that Rey finds Luke on is Rakkata Prime. Think about that possibility for a moment. 

 

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The question that prompted JJ to take the job and helm the next Star Wars trilogy was "Who is Luke Skywalker?"

Moving forward in the new trilogy, Luke's exile will be a topic of much curiosity. Was Luke filled with so much sadness, anger, and fear after the destruction of his new Jedi School that he forced himself into seclusion to stave off the draw of the dark side that courses through his familys blood? Was it that he didn't want to be found because the mere sight of Kylo Ren after what he did would illicit such strong emotions and Luke is afraid he wouldn't be able to control it leading to an inevitable fall to the dark side? I can't see this not being part of it somehow. But what kinda has been overlooked in all the hype over Kylo/Rey/Finn/Poe and others, is that Luke is looking for something, and it has to do with very old Jedi Temples (it might even be the first Jedi Temple, but I need to rewatch the film again). 

What could he possibly be looking for, and why is he looking for it? The new trilogy might be ultimatly about Rey's journey, but Luke is the trilogys McGuffin. The search for Luke was the mcguffin for the whole first film, and I would expect that the thing he is looking for will be the central thing driving the narrative forward to the conclusion of Episode IX.

There is a strong possibility in my mind that it has everything to do with this "awakening" in the Force. Consider the fact that connection to the force was at an all time low during the events of the prequel and original trilogy movies, mostly due to the Sith temples that the old Jedi council was standing on (Palpatine mentions something like this in the prequels and uses it to hide his presense and ultimately do what he did). By the looks of things, the Sith are done. We do not know just yet whether Snoke is indeed going to be revealed as the former Darth Plagueis, but I think the fact that Ben Solo and the military arm behind him bare the surname "Ren". To me this seems like a deliberate departure from Sith teaching and philosophy. Sure, you can argue that Kylo Ren is no where near trained enough to earn the moniker of "Darth" given by the Sith, but Ben taking on the new name of Ren to try and embrace dark side teachings points to a different teaching philosophy all together, something new (or maybe really old, who knows). 

Going back to Luke for a second, how much of the old Jedi order and teachings does he actually know? He really only had time to cover the starting basics with Obi-Wan before he chewed on Vaders lightsaber, and Luke never fully completed training with Yoda before he had to take off. It took old Jedi years upon years to train in the old order where they had archives and multiple masters and a plethora of knowledge to give. Jedi code and teachings were given to Luke in bite sized pieces and chunks, and where I'm sure he understands the fundamentals of it all, if he were to try and rebuild the Jedi I'm positive it wouldnt resemble the old ways at all. It would be in his image and understanding of it. It would be something new.

With the Sith likely extinct and the last remaining Jedi is really Jedi in name only, the Force explodes itself back into prominence since it has wayned for far too long and seeks equilibrium. Luke is without doubt very strong with the force and feels this awakening. This could prompt him into searching for the old Jedi temples, to seek out the knowledge he was never taught, to find a way to teach others without them falling like his father and his newphew have, what his bloodline seems destined to do. 

According to the Star Wars Databank, Max von Sydow’s character at the beginning is Lor San Tekka, an adventurer and explorer who helped Luke recover some old Jedi lore. We haven’t met him before this movie.

But at least that description for him explains how Luke might have learned more about the Jedi order.

I'm going to weigh in with one non-spoilery thought and a second maybe-spoilery thought, after taking the Grasshopper to see it yesterday.

Non-spoilery thought first: maybe it's my background in fencing, maybe it's just knowing that the late, great Bob Anderson couldn't have choreographed the sword fights since he died a couple years ago, but the bladework in the lightsaber duels looked... off. I'm aware that neither Finn nor Rey seems to have held a lightsaber before, and that Ren seems to be severely lacking in discipline, but I still assert those could have been communicated in a way that would have maintained an Andersonesque feel. (For example, look at what Bob had Merry/Pippin/Sam do on top of Weathertop in Fellowship of the Ring. They'd pretty much never held swords either, but what they did feels very different than Finn/Rey's work here.)

The maybe-spoilery thought comes from knowing that when John Williams was scoring the original Star Wars film, he drew deeply on the Wagnerian idea of a leitmotif, giving most/all of the main characters their own musical theme. (Examples: Leia, or the well-known Imperial March for Darth Vader) There's at least one time in this film where Luke's theme can be heard while Rey is the only person visible on the screen. That, more than anything else, suggests to me that Rey is related to the Skywalker/Solos.

Williams cue definitely links them, but it could be linking them in terms of being the light side hero rather than as blood relatives. Rey will probably end up being Luke's or Leai's daughter, I'm just hoping that she won't as it's a bit cheesy if it does go that way.