Static modifiers on targets that trigger Hairtrigger Reflexes

[ketigid]

Since the other thread (https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/a-few-clarifications-needed-3776) is heavily discussing Wrest the Mind, I decided to split this as a separate topic.

2a. Hairtrigger Reflexes on Explosive Wagon entering play. I replied just 1 damage since the text on Explosive Wagon isn't active yet.

2b. Hairtrigger Reflexes with Explosive Wagon in play on Granite Oni entering play. I replied 2, since +1 from Explosive Wagon, but no -1 from Granite Oni since its text isn't active yet.

@BlueHairedMeerkat

I think your call on Wrest the Mind is correct, but as soon as a card enters play its text is considered active. So 1) No, 2a) 2, 2b) 1.

@ketigid

For 2a and 2b, I was following the Positive/Negative Energy Field ruling that says triggers reacting to cards being played (or entering play?) acts first before resolving the card being played. (http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/891542/argent-adept-music-and-discord-di…)Am I right to say that, with Negative Energy Field in play, when Haka plays Tamoko, he will take 1 damage? Because Negative Energy Field resolves before Tamoko.So in 2a, HtR resolves before Explosive Wagon, hence 1 damage?

@BlueHairedMeerkat

The difference is, a damage-altering effect is not resolving. If the played card has an effect that activates when it enters play then your ruling is correct, but always-on abilities are always active, from the moment they enter play. So Ta Moko blocks the 1 damage, and HtR hits the Explosive Wagon for 2.

@arenson9

 I might be willing to buy this argument (static effects of 'being played' card take effect immediately, while triggered effects do no), but I'm not sure. Anyone know of any precedent?

[Spiff]

since the text on Explosive Wagon isn't active yet.

When did we decide that a card and the words on the card enter play separately?  I don't remember that.

[Nielzabub]

I would say that the card enters play, and then Hairtrigger reflexes off. Cards can not be valid targets until they are already in play.

[ketigid]

I was reading the Positive/Negative Energy Field thread and the Killing the Informant thread (https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/killing-the-informant-2829).

I can't find any official ruling regarding whether the text on cards exist or not when the card being played triggers a card already in play.

I suppose the question can also be applied to Informant versus Take Down. If Take Down stops Informant, then static damage modifiers will affect Hairtrigger Reflexes.

[Spiff]

If a card with 1 hp, which had text saying it was immune to damage entered play, I don't think we'd say that you could use Hair Trigger Reflexes to shoot it before its text made it immune.  Once it's in play enough that you can shoot it, it's immune.  Yeah?

[JimmytheRat]

I think it's a mistake to apply the Fowl ruling here, because that was a triggered ability rather than a static one.  The Fowl-Hairtrigger thing is because you have two triggers firing "at the same time," and Hairtrigger goes first because it was in play first... and if it destroys the card just played, then the second trigger never gets a chance to fire.

In this case, it's Hairtrigger Reflexes triggering by itself, so any static effects would still apply (since they're in play, after all, or Hairtrigger Reflexes wouldn't have triggered).

[Ameena]

When we play, if a card is in play which has an effect triggered by another card being played/entering play (eg Positive/Negative Energy Field, the Informant), I'll pick up the card about to be played but won't do anything with it (if it's a villain or environment card, I won't even look at it) until the resulting trigger has been dealt with. If it's Hairtrigger Reflexes, that's different - that requires a target to have entered play, whereas the other cards only need a card to have entered play. It's a card until it's actually in play, at which point it "activates" and becomes a target/ongoing/equipment or whatever type(s) of card it is. Then Expatriette can shoot it :). If Hairtrigger Reflexes and, say, Positive Energy Field were in play, when another card is playe I'd enact the Field first, then the card finishes entering play and suddenly has hitpoints (if it's a target), and the Hairtrigger goes off.

[Ronway]

I second everything Ameena has said. Infact she typed it so well that I can't even think of anything else I want to add to the case.

[ChocolatChip]

@Ronway

I second everything Ameena has said. Infact she typed it so well that I can't even think of anything else I want to add to the case.

 

Seconded

 

Edit:  yes, I just seconded your second to Ameena.  =D

[Foote]

Just to build concensus here, I also fully agree with Ameena. That is how I would resolve that situation as well.

[arenson9]

@Ameena

If Hairtrigger Reflexes and , say, Positive Energy Field were in play, when another card is playe I'd enact the Field first, then the card finishes entering play and suddenly has hitpoints (if it's a target), and the Hairtrigger goes off.

 

I wouldn't do it this way. I'd enact HtR and PEF in the order they were played.

[Ameena]

But they act on different things - the Fields activate whenever a card is played (regardless of what it is), and Hairtrigger goes off when a target enters play...so you get a card (from your hand, or from the top of the villain/environment deck) which means one is being played, so the Field goes off...then you actually put the card into play and activate it, therefore the text becomes active, which would include the hitpoints if it's a target and so activate Hairtrigger.

[JimmytheRat]

Yeah, I'm with Ameena on this one.  Play order only really matters for "simultaneous" actions, and the Energy Field and Hairtrigger Reflexes have separate trigger conditions and therefore (shouldn't?) be simultaneous.

[arenson9]

@Ameena

But they act on different things - the Fields activate whenever a card is played (regardless of what it is), and Hairtrigger goes off when a target enters play…so you get a card (from your hand, or from the top of the villain/environment deck) which means one is being played, so the Field goes off…then you actually put the card into play and activate it, therefore the text becomes active, which would include the hitpoints if it's a target and so activate Hairtrigger.

 

I don't see a card entering play or being played vs. a target entering play or being played as different things.

[arenson9]

@arenson9

 

Ameena wrote:

But they act on different things - the Fields activate whenever a card is played (regardless of what it is), and Hairtrigger goes off when a target enters play...so you get a card (from your hand, or from the top of the villain/environment deck) which means one is being played, so the Field goes off...then you actually put the card into play and activate it, therefore the text becomes active, which would include the hitpoints if it's a target and so activate Hairtrigger.  

 I don't see a card entering play or being played vs. a target entering play or being played as different things.

 

Hmmm … that may not be clear enough. I don't see a card being played and a card entering play as different things. For sure, a card can enter play for other reasons than being played, but even so, if a card enters play because it has been played, to me that is all one 'thing' or 'action'.

[Ameena]

As I understand it, stuff that activates on a card being played does so before that card's text is active - it doesn't matter what the card is, just that it's entering play, and anything that activates on such a trigger (eg Energy Fields, the Informant, etc) will do so regardless of what the card is. Then its text becomes active, which to me includes the hp if it's a target, and that's when anything that reacts to targets entering play would do so.

[ketigid]

This brings us back to the Informant vs Take Down. Does Take Down stop Informant?

[Ameena]

I've read elsewhere on the forum that anything which activates on a card being played does so before that card's text activates. So if the Informant is out and Legacy plays Take Down, it doesn't matter what card it is - he's played a card so the Informant gets to let the Chairman play a card. Once that's dealt with, then Take Down activates so no more villain cards can be played until it's gone. I'm only going by what's been said on the site previously. And stuff that reacts to powers being used (eg Spite with his toxic damage/discard drug, whatever it's called) does so after the power's effect has finished.

[arenson9]

You've convinced me. I will backpedal and agree that a card being played is properly different and comes before a card entering play.

This is what allows PEF to activate after another distortion is played but before it enters play and is what allows the Informant to cause The Chairman to play another card after Take Down is played but before Take Down enters play.

 

Given that, I don't think this argument needs to hinge on whether or not a card is considered a target while it is being played or only gains that status when it enters play, as HtR states 'Whever a non-hero target enters play', not 'is played'.

[arenson9]

Hmmm ... sorry to be so wishy-washy, but I'm no longer convinced that I agree and might re-pedal, if you will.

 

Hopefully, my brain is just working poorly and someone can point out the error of my ways.

 

In regards The Informant causing a villain card to be played before any card played is resolved, I can think of two different reasons this might be the case: 1) A card being played is seperable and comes before a card entering play and cards being played don't have text until the card enters play, and 2) The Informant was in play before whatever card is played/enters play, so it gets to trigger a villain card before whatever the entering card does anything.

 

So far, I don't think it matters what the reasoning is.

 

Consider, however, Take Down, which stops villain cards from being played. It is not a triggered action, per se, but a static 'rule', if you will. If we use the second reasoning above (The Informant was in play before whatever card is entering play), then the reason that The Informant gets triggered before whatever is being played might destroy The Informant is that, since no two actions are ever truly simultaneous, card order means that The Informant gets to trigger before, say, Back Fist Strike can do damage that would destroy the The Informant.

 

Take Down, however, does not do an action. It changes the rules. So there's no order of actions that needs to resolve. The card is played, causing it to enter play and change the rules. The Informant than triggers and is not allowed to play a villain card.

 

Does this cause any problems with the PEF ruling? I don't think so. PEF is in play before another distortion is played, so when it comes down to determining which goes first of PEF doing something versus the new distortion causing PEF to go away, since PEF was in play first, it goes first.