Sympathetic Villains

On second thought I see Iron Legacy is a sympathetic villain, he believes that any wrongs must be made right by him, there is no Legacy to pass the mantle, the world must be safe when he dies.

That may lead him to be the most monstrous of villains, but it is being misguided, not being evil that leads him.  Slowly his grief, and the refusal of others to see why he must do what he must turns him against his friends and innocents, he will make the world safe, no matter who he must fight to do so.  I find him a very sympathetic villain.

[quote="phantaskippy"] Akash'Bhuta is just doing her job.  She's a chaos entity, and frankly the Final Wasteland is kind of awesome, and I like to think that's Akash run wild.  Just because her idea of creation isn't cohabitable by humans doesn't mean she's evil, just misunderstood...

On second thought I see Iron Legacy is a sympathetic villain, he believes that any wrongs must be made right by him, there is no Legacy to pass the mantle, the world must be safe when he dies.That may lead him to be the most monstrous of villains, but it is being misguided, not being evil that leads him. [/quote]

I see this in a lot of discussions of assorted fiction beings, and I just don't get it.

Who cares about some abstract idea of "evil" when compared to genocide?  if something is so far removed from human morality that we cannot blame it for mass murder, then it's pretty hard to sympathize with, right?  As in, literally impossible, by definition?  And if we're willing to meet those beings on their own terms, why can't we meet the billions they would kill on their own terms?

Although, really, I don't think Iron Legacy gets to hide behind even that convoluted excuse.  He's murdering his friends for disagreeing with him.  That's not okay, no matter the excuse - debate of whether it is "evil" does more to discredit the idea of evil than to excuse Iron Legacy.

> I'm sympathetic towards repair drone.  Poor thing just wants to fix stuff, does a good job too.

On this, we completely agree.  Good old Repair Drone.

Though, really, there's lots of villain targets I find sympathetic.  Voss' slaves, obviously.  And I really wonder about the stories behind some of the Citizens - were Blood, Sweat, and Tears outcasts due to their appearances and possible fear-manipulation powers?  Anvil never speaks, and enters battle only to protect his less hardy allies, what's his story?  The four season Citizens all have little poems about themselves... except that Winter's is delivered by Dawn rather than herself, does she have doubts? - though it is possible I overthink such things.

And, of course, no discussion of sympathetic minions would be complete without a mention of Blade Battalion Guy Furthest To The Viewer's Left, his awkward posture and downturned mouth showing that he has no interest in all this fighting, and is only here because it's so hard to make enough money to provide for his family back in Lithuania.  Poor guy.

Ironic

Who cares about some abstract idea of "evil" when compared to genocide?

It's a question of scale.

We don't call eradicating an entire colony of Termites Genocide, because they aren't human.  Akash'bhuta isn't Human either, She is a god, and to her we are play things, if we are making a garden we think nothing of tearing out weeds and letting them die, only to replace them with different plants that we like better and if Akash is remaking a part of the world the way she wants and we are in her way she would remove us.  We fight her in self-defense, she fights because she is being attacked while doing her thing.

She is the role of chaos in creation, we may hold her at bay, but I would have a hard time ascribing right or wrong to either party, she is acting out her role in creation, and we are acting in self-defense.  If Akash dates back to the beginning of creation then the Heroes would be more wrong than her, as we are imposing our will against the natural order.

From our perspective she is wrong, because humans have decided that human life is valuable.

Anyone else feel bad for all of the innocent Fowl compelled to peck at the heroes by The Matriarch?

No.  I hate birds.

If God intended animals to fly he would have made them airplane pilots.

 

Matriarch provides the flavor text for Skunk Ape.

 

I better indication of her criminal career might be the comic numbers on her flavor text.  If they have a wide range, that argues a long criminal career.

Hmm… Though we can't really determine if she is with or against the heroes in that. Perhaps Tachyon has came to her for help and than it lead to a wacky adventure!

Matriarch appears in Freedom Five #690 and #691. Plus two additional titles that she is the lead villain in.

I want you to know: this made my day.

My thanks.

Not many villains that are sympathetic, but I do feel Plague Rat fits the bill. Sure, guy was a drug-dealer and probably scum, but then his hidey-hole devolved him, stripped him of all humanity, and made him completely incapable of doing anything but follow base intincts, mostly hunt, eat, and "breed". It makes me feel a little bad for him, it isn't like he had a choice in the matter, and it was the dangerous chemicals, improperly disposed of by the Chairman that turned him into what we see today.

I can't take Plague Rat seriously. He's far too similar to a Captain Planet villain.

I've always felt Rook City and its villains really had more of a "World of Darkness" vibe.  I always think of Werewolf: The Apocalypse with Plague Rat.

Well, not to dog pile on Plague Rat too much, but as I was introducing the game to someone and explained Plague Rat as having been mutated from toxic waste, she immediately said "So he's like Splinter?" (the teenage mutant ninja turtle trainer).  Albeit I had to explain Plague Rat is a villain and his personality is way different, I just quietly have never been able to look at him the same way again after that Splinter comparison. :wink:

(okay okay, Splinter was a rat mutated in to a rat-man while Plague Rat is a man mutated in to a rat-man, so i know there are more differences and all, just saying the comparison does pop in to my head every time he comes up as the villain)

 

Except for when he's a man mutated into a rat-man (80's and newest cartoon series)

 

I would now attempt to rerail the topic but…

 

Gloomy just kind of is, isn't he? Or at least he was…

As far as sympathetic villains, there really aren't many, which is a bit disappointing to be honest. Too many of the villains seem to be evil for the sake of being evil (I'm looking at you Apostate and Gloomweaver).

In addition, many of the villains have very flimsy and petty excuses for being evil. Both of Tachyon's nemeses, Friction and The Matriarch, are so petty it's pathetic. The two of them are essentially just throwing tantrums over imagined slights, and are completely unreasonable and childish (at least The Matriarch has the excuse of actually being a teenager). I was kind of disappointed when I learned Ermine's backstory, given that she is clearly the Catwoman to Wraith's Batman, and yet lacks any of the redeeming qualities and character depth that Catwoman posesses. She too seems childish and pathetic.

Iron Legacy is not all that sympathetic. Sure, I feel bad for the poor guy, no one should have to watch their own child die, but that certainly doesn't justify his reaction. I can't blame him for killing Baron Blade, but his regime of terror? That I can certainly blame him for. Yes, his daughter was murdered. Baron Blade's father was killed by Legacy's father, that doesn't make Baron Blade sympathetic, and the excuse isn't much stronger for Iron Legacy. I actually found the idea of Iron Legacy kind of disturbing, it's frightening to think that Legacy was that unhinged, that unstable.

Miss Information is sort of sympathetic, but not really. She's a victim of the overlapping timelines, but her reaction is still over the top. The woman is clearly very intelligent, she could have gotten work wherever she wanted, yet she chose to assist the Sentinels. Surely she must have been at least partially motivated by a desire to help others, and yet here she is trying to murder the people she worked with because in another timeline they let her die. I can't really sympathize with her.

Plague Rat is actually one of the more sympathetic villains. He's a victim of circumstance, was probably poor and almost destitute before his transformation. Sure, he was a drug dealer, the guy was also homeless, he wasn't exactly a drug lord, he was just trying to get by however he could. And now he's been robbed of his very humanity, become a mindless beast, living in a terrifying world in which he can't coexist peacefully. Hard not to feel bad for the poor guy.

The Dreamer is also fairly sypmathetic, again, a victim of circumstance, and clearly not really a villain, just a victim of her own powers. Not sure it's even fair to call her a sypmathetic villain, she's not really a villain at all.

One of the more sympathtic villains in my opinion is Fright Train. This guy is the victim of an uncaring society. He's a veteran, who nearly died serving his country, and yet when he returns home, he can barely find work and realizes there are next to no opportunites for him. He tragically makes the mistake of embarking on a career as an illegal mercenary, using the skills he has to try and make a name for himself, to carve out a life for himself. And in return, he gets experimented on against his will and subsequently locked up in an extradimensional prison. Plus, the fact that in the Iron Legacy timeline he has taken up the mantle of Bunker suggests to me that he really is a decent guy, just misguided and frustrated.

Lastly, I kind of wish we knew more about Akash'Bhuta. She never speaks, so we have no way of knowing her motivations. She may simply be lashing out at society for the way we have been systematically killing the planet for thousands of years, in which case, can you really blame her? But unfortunately, we have no way of knowing that, and so she just seems like a mindless monster.

That turned out way longer than I intended. I have always loved villains in movies and games though, so it should come as no surprise that I feel strongly about this sort of thing I suppose.

Would you have rather they lifted Catwoman whole cloth and named her "Feline Fatale" instead?  I understand that you don't mean that they should've both just been complete lifts of the characters, but I'm ok with the fact that Wraith gets a transhuman serial killer as her main arch and a frivolous thief as her baddie on the side.  Just because she is inspired by Batman doesn't mean she should just BE Batman.

I definitely get where you're coming from with Tachyon, though.  I've never been terribly impressed with The Matriarch as a nemesis, but I love Friction's "reverse Tachyon" design.

Friction's design is awesome, but for me, her bio just doesn't hold up.  She's... bad at everything, and everyone (hero and villain alike) just wants to ignore her.  EPIC NEMESIS!  Characters like this obviously exist in coics, too, and they can be pretty amusing - but as one of the focal characters of a huge event?  That seems rather weak to me.  In Tachyon's own words: "dude, you are not my nemesis."

As for Ermine, I disagree with both of you - I think she is a direct lift, and I wish she weren't.  So, if nothing else, it shows how open to personal opinion this kind of discussion is.

Ironic

Perhaps true, but I'd definitely say she's LESS sympathetic than Magneto.  He's a holocaust survivor, whereas she's basically just a bullied teen.  Plus the cult-like and communistic vibes of the CotS are definitely way creepier than even christening your followers the "Brotherhood of EVIL Mutants" (I always figured that name was meant to be ironic, though still questionable.)

It was clarified earlier in the thread that Dawn is just meglomaniacal. So I wouldn't put her in my list of sympathetic villains so far. My list contains the Dreamer for obvious reasons, and even though I'm not really sympathetic to Iron Legacy, I still think his story is very sad. I guess there might be some sympathy for Omnitron since he becomes O-X and then ends up on a quest to end his own existence. I'd put Proletariat on the list since he was basically forgotten about and abandoned and is being forced into a world he doesn't really understand very well. 

The Brotherhood of Mutants, originally known as the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants (although its members themselves never used the term), is a fictional Marvel Comics supervillain team devoted to mutant superiority over normal humans. They are among the chief adversaries of the X-Men. The original Brotherhood was created by writer Stan Lee and artist/co-writer Jack Kirby and first appeared in X-Men #4 (March 1964).

Why can't Legacy have more kids?  That would continue the line.  He could have a whole family of Legacies.  Life isn't over after one bad event.