Can Twisted Miscreation be killed through hit point damage while Infinitor is on Tormented Malefactor side? Twisted Miscreation reduces all damage dealt to him to 1 and Tormented Malefactor provides a general "Damage Taken Minus 1" buff to all villain targets. So, unless there is a timing thing involved here, damage is reduced to 1 and then 1 is subtracted from damage bringing the total to 0...unless that is reversed. Is that reversed?
You can choose to apply Infinitor's DR before Malefactor's effect. So 4 damage to Malefactor would go to 3, and then automatically to 1. Even if you couldn't choose, Infinitor was in play first, so he would take precidence anyway.
Edit: Nevermind, forgot there was an order of effects there.
Twisted Miscreation makes any damage dealt to him reduced to 1. You need to apply all damage modifications before you actually deal it damage for that trigger to kick in. So -1 first, then if its greater than 1 damage, reduce it to 1.
Infinitor's DR will always come before Malefactor's effect just to clarify here.
Edit: actually, I'm not sure thats true. I gotta go read the card again.
Yeah, I realized that after I was ninja'd. So I ninja'd you by editing my post :P
I revise what I said. Killswitch was right I think. You can choose the order. I say this because of the official ruling for Fortitude/Superhuman Durability. You can choose the order there, so it would follow you can in this situation too.
Awesome! Thanks for the info. I wasn't entirely sure because the idea of a manifestation that is almost unkillable until Infinitor flips actually made a tiny amount of sense to me. It certainly gives Infinitor more bite over time.
Aw man, I was all excited I was going to jump in and correct Foote. Too late this time.
Hmm. I don't think you can choose the order in a fashion that makes him take more than one damage. Say he's got Parse's "new target takes +1 damage on him", I think you still wind up dealing one damage, no applying Parse's effect after reducing the damage to 1 to make it into 2.
No issue with applying damage in an order that makes it zero, though.
I disagree; if you get to choose the order, you can definitely boost the damage over one with damage buffs. All cchanges must be applied, but there's nothing about Twisted Miscreation's effect that makes it override effects *after* it.
I assume we at least agree we have to apply every damage dealt modifier to the incoming damage before he can take the damage and thus reduce it, so no cheating by applying Galvanize last?
For me, I'm seeing this as related to the way you remove modifiers when they no longer apply (such as when targets change or damage types get modified), granted that process can get pretty hinky. You made the target take more damage? Great, it removes more of it now. Essentially I plan to play the card as though there's no way other than irreducible damage to cause more than a point of damage at a time, as that's the way the card reads and that's how I prefer to let it play. Knyfe's still good against it with flawless execution, as are the various destroy targets effects.
The Fortitude/Superhuman Durability rulings implies you can. But you can still choose it to play that way and feel confident you're playing within all official rules. Thats kinda the beauty of the ruling.
Maybe. I can see it going that way, and I can also see it having the same timing (and wording) as something like Null-Calibration, and it would happen after all modifiers. Given, the term "reduce" seems to indicate that it happens at the same time, but I am not sure if there is a better way to word it. So, I can see it going both ways.
It's an interesting one, because it's a sliding scale and the others are fixed. I know the app lets you mix the order of dealt and reduced right now, and I'm not personally enamored of a situation where Fanatic fighting with Legacy hits the miscreation for four instead of two because she applies Galvanize after setting the damage to one. Wonder if it'll lead to a change, I think it leaves the card a bit impotent vs. modifiers but that may just be how the cards flop.
For the record, I'm also not enamored of applying Wraith's -1 to damage dealt after reducing damage taken with one of the 5 point reduction effects :) I'm pretty sure the app allows that one. My strong preference is that damage dealt modifiers all get applied before considering effects that alter damage taken. YMMV and >G's mileage definitely varies.
With my current understanding of the timing rules, you could make it always act last if it were worded: "Whenever <this> takes damage, prevent all but 1 point of damage." Because "prevention" happens after the increase/reduction step. But partial damage prevention seems to be a deprecated concept, which only exists on one current card (and that was probably an oversight), so it's not a great solution.
I feel like the intent of the card is that every time it gets hit for reducable damage, you remove a hit point from it, so that's how I played it. The wording of "Whenever this card would be dealth damage" also makes me think you'd apply all modifyers first to see if it would be dealt damage, but I'm sure there is an arguement to be made against that.
That's actualy a pretty good argument. If it said "Whenever... instead", then I wouldn't question it at all.
I still believe the other side, but my belief is wqeaker now :-)
I believe you are right, but the argument against that is Superhuman Durabiity that has the same wording. However, to me, the word "reduce" isn't defining the timing, but "reduce to". All other modifiers that has the same timing say "reduce by".
Thats a fair point. Could be grounds for not labeling them as simultaneous triggers, therefore not falling under the SHD ruling.
This reminded me about an older arguement I just tested out int the app. Fanatic dies with Aegis and Phos. Chamber in play. Her hp is set to 10.