I found a related thread but it wasn't conclusive in there either. https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/when-this-card-is-destroyed
Visionary plays Wrest the Mind on Sonic Mines. When Sonic Mines is destroyed, how should the result be resolved?
When Sonic Mines is destroyed, is Sonic Mines still a target? Does it still have HP? Did it leave play? If so, will Wrest the Mind be destroyed before Sonic Mines start dealing damage?
This chains naturally with the Throat Jab Backlash Field topic http://sentinelsofthemultiverse.com/forum/topic/throat-jab-vs-backlash-field and http://sentinelsofthemultiverse.com/forum/topic/throat-jab-vs-backlash-field-0
If Sonic Mines did not leave play and Wrest the Mind was not destroyed, then can Visionary redirect Sonic Mine's damage to Visionary so that Visionary do not need to take further damage from Wrest the Mind?
What if Wrest the Mind redirects the first Sonic Mine's damage to a second Sonic Mines?
Well as you said, the other thread was not very conclusive. My gut feeling is that Wrest the Mind would work on Sonic Mine. I'm less sure that Sonic Mine would continue to be a valid target for other purposes, but it seems like it should be. The pending rules question related to the Throat Jab thread you linked would answer whether redirecting Sonic Mine's damage to itself is enough to stop it from dealing any more damage.
Sonic Mine is necessarily in play before Wrest the Mind, so I would say resolve its effect (dealing damage) before Wrest the Mind's last effect (destroying itself when the target leaves play). Since I would leave Wrest the Mind in play while Sonic Mine is dealing damage, it only seems natural that it should be able to redirect Sonic Mine's damage.
As for whether Sonic Mine is still a target, it is a bit odd. If a card is destroyed and another card reacts to its destruction, I would certainly remove the destroyed card completely before resolving the reaction. Even with Mountanous Carapace (Akash'Bhuta's limb which reduces damage to her) even though the reaction to it being destroyed is coming from Mountanous Carapace's text, I like the answer that its damage reduction is already gone when resolving that reaction. However, since Sonic Mine is actually dealing damage itself, it really makes more sense to me for it to still be a target while resolving its damage.
Whenever I think about this, I start thinking about the Game of Thrones LCG and moribund cards, but we really don't want to go there....
Sonic mines has to be destroyed before it damage triggers correct? So you would destroy the mines (which destroys wrest as well) then sonic mines does its damage.
Think of it in another way if you don't like the above. Wrest has to deal damage to the wrested target before any redirection happens. Sonic mines is already "destroyed" by this time, hence can't take that damage therefore can't redirect it.
I would say the destroy effects resolve before the sonic mines damage (as that is a reactive trigger on the condition that the mine was already destroyed).
If a card says "if [sonic mine] leaves play, destroy this card", is that card still in effect while Sonic Mine deals damage from being destroyed?
Example: Wrest the Mind is played next to Sonic Mine, then Sonic Mine is destroyed. Can Visionary redirect the damage dealt by Sonic Mine?
Personally I have a hard time seeing why she wouldn't be able to redirect the damage this way.
Question 2:
Can damage be directed to Sonic Mine while it is dealing damage from being destroyed?
Example: Mr Fixer has Driving Mantis and destroys Sonic Mine. Can he redirect the damage it deals back to the destroyed Sonic Mine?
Note that the answer to the pending question on Hypersonic Assault would effect whether there is any tactical reason to choose Sonic Mine over another villain target. If Sonic Mine doesn't immediately stop dealing damage when it hits itself, then you may as well just redirect to Ambuscade. Though I suppose having Sonic Mine still considered a valid villain target would matter if it destroys a Bot with Volatile Parts out.
The difficulty with this is allowing a card such as Sonic Mine to have an effect while still preserving the ruling that if a card is destroyed while in the middle of (or even while starting to perform) an action, the action is canceled at that point, while preserving any results of the action as had been performed prior to the destruction of the card. The duration effects can easily be excepted from this general rule by stating the responsibility of the effect is no longer a part of that card, but rather is the responsibility of the expiration time determined on the card (and really is the only way One-Shot cards can even have such lasting effects).
The simplest way to allow this without retroactively effecting other cards is to simply state that a card which reacts upon it's own destruction is still allowed to act during it's destruction, by simple case that if it couldn't, then the text on the card would simply be superfluous.
Having said that, I believe that which would make most sense is that the Sonic Mine is already destroyed, as it acts when it is destroyed (as opposed to 'when this card would be destroyed'). As such, Sonic Mine is no longer in play (and has left play), and is no longer an active target. When it deals damage to other cards, those cards would be dealt damage, but would not be dealt damage by a target (as it is no longer a target at this point, as it is no longer in play). This is not exactly unprecedented, as many environment cards deal damage which is simply sourced as "the environment" (and as such is damage which is not dealt by a target).
In short, in the case where a target deals damage because it was destroyed, I would say that it effectly is destroyed and leaves play (and thus triggers any card destruction and leaving play as normal), ceases to be a target in play, and reacts to it's destruction the same way other cards would react to it's destruction, dealing sourceless damage.
(In the example with Wrest the Mind, it would be destroyed because the Sonic Mine left play before the Sonic Mine deals any damage, and Mister Fixer, while his Driving Mantis can redirect the Sonic Mine damage, cannot redirect to Sonic Mine as it's no longer a target in play.)
I can see saying that Sonic Mines are out of play and can't take additional damage, but if they are also not a target and/or the damage is sourceless that would mean that Grease Gun couldn't stop their damage either. That doesn't really seem right to me.
Also, I don't see why Wrest the Mind would react to them leaving play before Sonic Mines reacts to itself being destroyed, unless the rule is that cards reacting to their own destruction are last in the 'entered play' order.
Well sonic mines has to be destroyed to trigger its effect.
If it was ment to stay in play, it's likely it would have been worded "whenever sonic mines would be destroyed, deal damage, then destroy sonic mines"
Wrest the mind would instantly be destroyed at the same time sonic mines is. In this case, grease gun would not effect damage from the mine. I think the way jaymann described it is how it is intended to work.
Why would grease gun not work? Is the sonic mine suddenly dealing hero damage? Even if the game can't look to see what the damage is anymore, the default would still be (nothing) and (nothing) is still (not a Hero) source, so would be prevented.
Grease gun stops non-hero targets from dealing damage. So if Sonic Mines really isn't a target anymore, then it isn't stopped by Grease Gun. (I personally don't see why it shouldn't be a target though, even if it is not in play and/or unable to be damaged. Kismet's Inconceivable Obstruction can certainly consider a card a target before it enters play.)
How so? Inconceivable Obstruction does not redirect damage to the environment target before it enters play. If the top card of the Enviro happens to be a target, it is played first and then dealt the redirected damage.
Allow me to put the Mine into some thematic perspective. It is a mine. If the mine explodes, just like a mine would in real life, the damage from the blast is being felt while the mine itself has already exploded into obvlivion and ceases to exist. That is the thematic intent of the card I believe.
It doesn’t cause out of play cards to take damage, but it still considers them a target before putting them in play. I just thought it was strange to say a card stops being a target when it leaves play. Though of course being a target isn’t necessarily enough to say it is still a valid target to select for damage.
Thematically there are alot of targets which probably shouldn’t be stopped by a greasegun or be susceptible to mind control. And there are probably one or two non-target environment cards that should.
Well, it considers them targets because if they have HP, then it is a target. Just because the Mine is destroyed and leaves play does not mean it is no longer a "target". It is just a target that is in the trash now. Maybe I am just not quite understanding what you are saying.
I believe that is what I meant, as it is no longer in play, it is no longer a valid target. Clearly it is still a target. Not being a valid target would mean it can’t be the source of the damage in such a way that a target dealt damage. Rather, it would simply be that villain card (mainly worded that way such that Combat Stance and Flame Barrier don’t kick off (even though they would have no effect anyway, considering damage would be nullified anyway)).
Also, this is simply an attempt at creating a simple consistent ruling, not necessarily how I play now or how I would like to play it.
It seems like I was derailing us with a more or less pedantic point.
I was just trying to reply to theJayMann's comment that targets damaged by the mines "would not be dealt damage by a target (as it is no longer a target at this point, as it is no longer in play)." While I can see either side of whether damage can still be dealt to the Mines, I don't see any reason why the Mines wouldn't still be considered a non-hero target and the source of the damage. However it sounds like his intention was just to address things like Combat Stance which try to deal back damage to the source.