There is quite a large list of heroes this describes. Bunker(with no mode), Expat, Fanatic, Legacy (although you can get two powers that do something), Tempest, Wraith (although you can get two powers that do something), Ra, Fixer, etc. I don't want to go through the whole list of heroes but most of the base set heroes (including Visionary) seem to have this feel and then they got more involved as the expansions came out (which I think is a good thing).
Now I did list Tempest and Ra in here and you put them on your list though near the bottom. I guess I don't consider anything that gives +1 damage a "chain" so much as a buff. For me a "chain" is a more interactive combo, so they both feel like straight up play/power/draw heroes to me, but I will try to keep your view point in mind as far as what you like to see.
A good friend of mine really likes heroes that he feels get stronger every turn as the game progresses, so he really likes heroes like Ra. However he really dislikes it when heroes can't get a good setup so Zero really frustrates him. I think there is a delicate balance in that.
Ok, thanks for the explanation, that makes more sense.
Almost everything he does involves multiple things happenning at the same time. There are people who thrive on ordering things like that.
I channel some OCD-ness when I play Adept. To me it is all about putting things in order.
I wouldn't be too worried about pulling off big chains with Adept, often it seems people will chain instruments with him even if it doesn't really help the current situation.
Here's how I deal with it:
1. Once Supertonic is out, I put the instruments that activate a perform Harmony first, since those are my basic chaining instruments.
2. The most important effects to remember are the ones that can be activated by the second effect of those instruments. These are your Chaining effects.
Take the Harp. It plays Perform Harmony and Accompany Harmony, that perform is your link to the next instrument, the accompany is essentially free.
3. From there it is just memory and bookkeeping. I order the songs by type, and pay attention to the "free effects". The Harp and Lyra are your chain instruments, they each can activate Supertonic. Harp gives you accompany Harmony, Lyra Accompany Rhythym, so those effects I pay attention to.
Supertonic has the Adept heals 2 on it, so it is a very basic chain with the Harp, someone gets a power and you heal.
Your other free chain for the harp is Dissonant, which lets you burn your deck to get cards.
Lyra is my favorite, since it's "Free" effect is accompany Rhythym, which lets you have an ally play a card (Inventive), or draw a card (Bulwark)
4. Just because you can chain doesn't mean you should. If your best action is to give someone a power, and you can, do it. If you can gain some "Free effects" and do it, great, if not do what needs done and forget the chaining.
5. Once you get familiar with his deck you can get an idea about what songs you want out to best help your team he gets a lot easier to play. Spiff's guide cards are awesome, they really help, but you still have to get the basics of his deck down, and the best way to do that is to play him.
Arcane Cadence can be overwhelming. I have found my best way to do it is:
1. Find the one card I am most OK never seeing again, that one goes on bottom of the deck (or an instrument that you can summonr with conjuration)
2. The most situational card to the trash, I can Vernal it if needed.
3. The one that best works in play into play.
4. The two I want in my hand go on top of the deck and in hand.
I organize it like that, it works for me. Then I put them there in the order on the card (it's best early on that your allies give you leeway on the order)
I agree - its certainly gotten more interesting! (I wouldnt say better, but certainly more intricate!) - after all the 5 new heroes i love due to their internal synergy.
And yeah, with Fixer and Ra and Fanatic, I listed that their so called 'synergy' isnt as intricate or even 'real' synergy like Chrono Ranger or KNYFE. But I at least feel like I get something out of them, but visionary… i never feel like I do. Since of late its just been my gf and I playing together, we each play 2 heroes so I play Visionary more, but… still. Allthough fanatic does have "riders" on her cards - Use a power, redirect damage, draw a card - things that can help support her. Especially with the one that you discard a card to do damage every turn.
I certainly agree she is powerful. Never had any doubt about it, deck manipulation leads to the best case scenario possible. And im a big LCG/CCG player so deck manipulation when done right means winning games. Just … i donno. Boring for me to play. Heh.
I'm of the same mind, when it comes to Argent Adept. Depending on what my opening flop is, I'll either gun for Harmony/Harmony, Rhythm/Rhythm, or Melody/Melody. Even then–barring outside card play and the like–it's still likely 3 turns before actually pulling that off (two, if you have Instrumental Conjuration to run with).
I think one of the reasons I really like Bunker is because I'm not really picky on what Equipment I get. Once I've gotten 2 down, I'll gladly drop into Turret Mode and blast away, either staying high on the HP chain with Maintenance Unit or just laying down fire. AZ's deck search is much better than Bunker's obviously, which lets him get the 'required' bits out faster.
But still, you'd have to have how many cards out to pull off Argent Adept's "uber-combo"? All 6 instruments, as well as at least one copy of each song (9, in all)? Even in the longest of games with no card destruction, I don't think I've ever had a character get that many cards out at once!
I was just trying to show how the notation would work. Here's a much simpler and more practical example.
Activate Musaragni's Harp. Put a "1" die on the part of the text which says "Activate the Perform text of a Harmony card".
Choose to Perform Inspiring Supertonic. Put a "2" die on the Perform text of it.
Choose to use your new Power to activate Eydisiar's Horn. Put a "3" die on the part of the text which says "Activate the Perform text of a Melody card".
Destroy an Ongoing or Environment card with Sarabande of Destruction, then move the "3" die to the part of the Horn which says "…and the Accompany text of a Harmony card".
Choose to Accompany Inspiring Supertonic. Put a "4" die on the Accompany text of it. Gain 2 HP, then remove the "4".
You're done resolving the Horn, so remove your "3".
You're done using your Power from Supertonic, so remove your '2".
Move on to where the Harp says "…and the Accompany text of a Harmony card" and move the "1" die to there. Put a "2" die on the Accompany of Inspiring Supertonic. Gain 2 HP, then remove the "2".
Remove the "1" and you're done.
Without Alacritous Subdominant, the whole thing is much less brain-melty. And it's not like you HAVE to use Subdominant's Accompany and then blow it up; doing so is cool, but if you expect to have a next turn, you're probably better continuing to play extra cards and use your Accompanies on something else. So if you never get the hang of a chain longer than this, Silverleaf, it isn't that big a loss. You can still perform very well with Argent by just playing one Instrument each turn; eking the extra utility out of Subdominant can make the difference in tight matches, but choosing not to go there is a valid playstyle choice, and over the course of all your games it won't hamper your effectiveness too much, since after all it's not as if you even always draw Subdominant, nor a way to Accompany it.
When I'm playing the Adept, I base my strategy for that game on three things, mainly - the villain/environment situation, the other heroes in the group (and thus the thing they're likely to need), and the cards I have available to me at that time. Getting the Harp, the Lyra, Supertonic, and any Rhythm out is a nice combo but it doesn't always happen. You can do just fine with two songs and an instrument (provided that instrument can activate both the songs). If all you end up with is both Sarabandes and your Pipes, that's still really cool if you're in a nasty environment or against a villain with horrible ongoings, since you can take out two a turn. It's also okay to chuck an instrument in your trash if you get one via Arcane Cadence (and don't need that instrument right now), since you can retrieve it straight into play with Instrumental Conjuration later.
I recall one game I had as the Adept, against Citizen Dawn, in which I only got out a couple of songs and an instrument or two, but it worked really well (I think one of the songs was Alacritous Subdominant so I kept letting the other heroes play stuff to blow up citizens or whatever) and we ended up winning that game.
Of course, it's nice if you can get all your stuff out, and the Adept has a lot of stuff…but so do several other heroes and none of them need to get everything out in order to function either. On more than one occasion I've ended up with my entire deck out (in hand/in play), which is always nice, but it's only happened a few times so far. Whenever it's my turn, I'll look at the current game situation and try to decide what needs to be done right now, or what's likely to need doing over the next round or so. If I can, I'll get out the cards that will help that. If I don't have anything that seems immediately useful then I'll put out whichever of my cards I think will be most helpful in the future. Unless my starting hand is devoid of songs, instruments, Arcane Cadence, or Instrumental Conjuration (so, most of the deck), I pretty much always have something I can play. If I have one of those first turns where I end up chaining anywhere up to all four of my Arcane Cadences, I just have to remember to get a song in play by the end of my Play phase so I can actually use a power that turn…though I haven't forgotten to do so for a while now - I think my brain's got the hang of that one now :).
I think I have a reasonable memory for stuff like this in general, since it only took a few games with the Adept before I started really getting the hang of his deck. So I know what all his cards do and can remember them without needing to look at the deck (this is true for most of the heroes, though ;)). Actually, thinking about it, I'm not 100% on the Drum (part of a Rhythm and something) and the Horn (Melody and something). But the other four instruments are fine ;).
So basically, I just play with whatever I've got - if I have several options of stuff to do (so, most of the time ;)), I'll just put out whatever I think will be most helpful at that moment.
I was in a game with Silverleaf on G+ last week and also don't quite get the Adept. He always felt like he was on the cusp of being able to flip out like a musical ninja and bust some moves, but he never quite did.
I have the same thing with AZ (my character in said game). In that game I happened to get his required set up out in the first few turns and as we were against Ambuscade The Kinda Meh they never got destroyed. My set up was in play all game and I was effective. In a game I played the following evening, all I ever managed to achive was to up the H rating by one. He was terminally pointless and really, really unfun to play.
I'll agree that when trying to learn tricky heroes it definately helps to follow each and every step through to understand them, even if it makes a simple game take longer. When you play a card and someone watching says instantly "net result of what you did is 3 healing for you, 22 damage dealt, next turn" or "find that card, play that card, do that" it kinda shortcuts the 'getting the hang of it' process.
To my mind, Absolute Zero VERY strongly encourages you to get both Null-Point Calibration Unit and Isothermic Transducer into play before you do anything else. You can go it with just one (being a self-sacrificial damage-dealer or a mediocre tank), but much more so than, say, KNYFE, I feel like I am being ounished for my haste/bad luck. And, of course, most of the famous examples of him dealing serious damage come from Thermal Shockwave, but as that's a card with only two copies and none of his search/recursion tech works on it, good luck with that.
As for his ineffective state without a setup: how about being a Hero who can only damage yourself? This is his literal starting state, and it is the weakest in the game.
But if you want a more detailed example, consider this: Cryo Chamber, Focused Aperatures, Glacial Structure, and Modular Realignment are, collectively, 11 cards - more than a quarter of a Hero deck! - which, among themselves and AZ's base Power, do exactly nothing to impact any aspect of the game (unless you need to tank some Fire damage, I guess). Sure, Glacial Structure lets you see more cards… by skipping your Play and Power phases. And remember that it costs you a card. You know what else nets you a two-card gain at the cost of both Play and Power? A default game mechanic that everyone has access to. I am reasonably certain that no other hero has a quarter of their deck which can see them doing nothing on the opening turns… indeed, it is totally impossible, since the only other Heroes who have Powers potentially that useless are The Argent Adept and Setback. Neither one has Discard-only tutoring, or passive cards which cannot accomplish something when combined with base Powers. The closest they get is the Adept opening to all six Intruments in a row, and that's still only half as many temporarily dead cards (none of which are as truly dead as Glacial Structure).
This is not purely a thought excercise. These cards, plus Fueled Freeze and Isothermic Transducer were all that a close friend of mine drew in her first game as Absolute Zero (and the Transducer came out after she had played the Cryo Chamber, so that was another hoop to jump through). This contributed in a meaningful way to her giving up on Sentinels entirely. I will allow that may bias me some, but that's not all there is to it.
For starters, the scenario above isn't even the only crippling draw for Absolute Zero. Combined, his Modules and Module-seeking One-Shots account for sixteen cards! Sixteen cards, which amount to either dealing a single point of damage, healing a single point of damage, or occasionally playing a Realignment (painfully, if you don't have any targets for it in your Trash) to do both. That's totally crazy. I always thought that Ra was excessive with eight copies of Staff/Summon Staff, but at least when you loop those together, you're healing 3 and dealing 4 each turn, which is a wild improvement over a setup-only AbZero. The Argent Adept is totally built around his setup, but Instruments and Conjurations of same only account for 11 cards in his deck, and you get benefits from playing more than two. Nightmist's setup is a lot more versatile and powerful without One-Shot support, and even it only comes out to twelve cards - and this on a Hero who totally revolves around card draw and discard! Nobody has as many bad draws, or is as useless when getting them, as poor Absolute Zero. And that's a crying shame.
You see, I really like Absolute Zero. I think he's a neat character, and that his gameplay does a good job of conveying it - I would say he's got the most evocative design of the original ten heroes! When I play him, and the pieces come together, it's brilliant. But much, much more often, I find that they don't. Either he's too mired in dead cards to make a workable setup, or he's getting nuked out of his setup and painfully aware that without it he can only hurt himself, or he's set up quickly but then drawing nothing but Modules and Module-seeking cards with no greater damage source in sight - the combination of two Modules AND Thermal Shockwave AND a steady flow of damaging One-Shots (there are only seven in his deck, and I'd played him twice before I saw any except Fueled Freeze) is just way too unreliable. I feel like a lot of people get that setup one game by pure random chance (or maybe Visionary/Team Leader Tachyon/some other hero more effective than Absolute Zero), and they think "oh, I didn't get this guy before, but now that I understand him, he's awesome". But while there are some counterintuitive principles to grasp, mostly, it's a counterintuitive deck messing you about.
Fortunately, I don't see this as a problem without a solution. I simply changed the numbers of a few cards in his deck (for example, down to three of each Module, and five Module Instalations, which now search both deck and discard like everyone else's setup cards - I mostly added more damaging One-Shots in the new five cards of space). And I read his power as "Absolute Zero deals himself 1 Fire or 1 Cold damage. Draw a card." Combined with a few tweaks to how other things work (Glacial Structure is both an Ongoing and an Equipment, and lets you draw whenever it gets destroyed, so it at least has value shielding the rest of your setup), his damage/taking potential is exactly the same as in the printed version, but he now gets good games often and garbage ones rarely.
Definately agree. Figuring out your own stuff is vital - not saying that people shouldn't point out stuff you've forgotten, like you should take less damage because of Cryo Chamber or that you still have a card play left, but you can't learn effectively if someone just spoon-feeds you the answer. It's like doing your kid's homework for them because they don't understand it. Sure, the homework gets done, but the kid can't do the next one either.
And this is why I want to set up a regular weekly learning session on G+ on Wednesday evening/night for people to play heroes they haven't grokked yet. No expert-with-everyone players (sorry guys, I love you, but we don't need the pressure of you seeing our hideous mistakes even if you don't point and laugh), no telling each other what to do (helpful suggestions are fine). If you're interested in joining us, let me know!
I'm not advocating a rewrite of AZ, I know there are people out there who dig Mr Frost the way he is and that's cool. There are sooooo many hero combinations in this cool lil game that everyone can find a character who works for them.
That said... I don't enjoy Z to the point that when he shows up on the randomiser, I re-randomise him and get someone else!
How fortunate for you, phantaskippy, that I could do nothing to your use of Absolute Zero if I wanted to. You have nothing to fear from me.
You may, however, find yourself distressed by threads explicitly about people having issues with certain heroes, if such opinions pose the threat you seem to believe.
I'm sorry, that came across wrong, it seems that everytime someone makes a post like yours we end up with pages of rehashed debates that go back to the early days of this game, I have no problem with house-ruling heroes, just wanted to avert a firestorm of rehashing.
Agreed, let's try to keep the rehashing to a minimum.
I too don't enjoy AZ as much as some of the other heroes. I don't mind the maths, but like Ironic I find that he often has a handful of cards that aren't really useful since he's set up already, or has nothing in trash, leaving me with few interesting decisions. And I'm not keen on having to track how much damage he's dealt/been dealt, because it's extremely easy to forget about and frankly, not that interesting to me. But I don't mind him, to be honest.