5 damage with "shielding winds"/"flesh to iron in play"

Other Games SotM Game Engine
1

Say, Tempest had "shielding winds" in play (whenever a hero target would be dealt 5 or more damage, reduce that damage by two), and The Scholar had "Flesh to iron" in play (reduce damage dealt to the scholar by 2), and The scholar was dealt exactly 5 damage, I've always played it that The lowest damage the scholar could take (assuming no other modifiers in play) would be 3 damage (and not 1). is this correct ?

The reasoning behind this being I've always played it as "shielding winds" (and similar cards) only take effect after all "normal" modifiers have been taken into account and the condition has still been met (ie. in the case of shielding winds, If after all other modifiers are taken into account and then the hero target would still have his HP reduced by 5 or more, then reduce that damage by 2 - if damage reduction reduces the amount of HP he would actually lose to 4 or less then the additional 2 reduction from shielding winds doesn't occur).

The only reason I started to doubt this was reading through the fireside chats and coming across the following:

"If wraith has stealth active and something does 0 zero damage to her, it does not use up the temporary damage reduction. If something does 1 damage, she can choose the order of operations such that it becomes 0 damage and does not use up the temporary damage reduction"

Now, thats no big news (It has already been long established that, if once "normal" modifiers were applied the amount of damage is reduced to 0 or below then her stealth damage reduction would not be used up, this is mainly besed on the "Damage dealt = HP reduced" prinicpal, the implication for stealth being that it is only used up if she would actually take any HP reduction from the attack after all modifiers applied ... somewhat similar to how most redirections are worked out; if the original  target wouldn't take any damage from the attack once modifiers are applied then it can't be redirected).

What is confusing me about this new coment is that I don't understand how there is even any choice involved anywhere; in the case where something attempts to deal her 1 damage, reduction gets taken into account and something reduces this damage to 0, then I don't see where she is having to make any choice regarding order of operations- The condition of "The next time the wraith would be dealt damage" hasn't been meet (as her hp wouldn't be reduced) so the damage reduction for stealth can't happen.     

So getting back to my Shielding winds/flesh to iron scenario, is it now possible to do the following.

Something attempts to deal the Scholar 5 damage - The scholar chooses to apply the effects of shielding winds at this point (reducing damage to 3)- The scholar now chooses to apply the effects of "flesh to iron" (reducing final damage taken to 1).

As far I was aware I didn't think this was a legal move, in that it seems to indicate "would be dealt damage" reductions/effects/reductions (argh!)  happen at the same time (and thus can happen in an order of the players choosing) as simple "reduce damage dealt to the scholar by 2" type effects ?

Love this game, but it frustrates me so much some time! ("it's not you, it's me")

2

It's always been possible to do that. Though in your example The Scholar would only take one damage if the initial hit is five.  Basically you get to choose the order in which damage is reduced.   If you wanted you could have Flesh to Iron take effect first but then Shielding Winds won't have any impact.    Legacy is capable of doing similar with his own cards of Superhuman Durability and Fortitude.  He takes a hit for five damage and chooses to apply Superhuman Durability first reducing the damage by three and then applying Fortitude reducing it by another one and ultimately taking one damage.  

3

All modifiers are applied at the same time, in the order the players choose. “Would be dealt” does not indicate a different timing. See here for a longer explanation:

https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/dealing-damage-timing-clarification-6047

4

Yeah, you always get to choose those kinds of modifiers. The only time I've seen it where you don't get to choose, per the app, is if for some reason the character is outright immune to damage (like if Legacy's made everyone immune, or Ra's Flesh of the Sun God is out and he's hit with a fire attack). In any other case of damage reduction or redirection, the app always asks what order you want the cards to act in.

5

Thanks for your replies guys.

I've re-read up on the damage order of operations spreadsheet, and your right, my question is clearly answered on it, thanks.

Love sentinels but after playing for a good few years it still irritates me when I end up having to "throw" the majority games and record them as a non result just because of some obscure rule or interaction.

but ... I suppose thats more my fault for being such a pedant.

(this is why I like that the video game has come along ... it's sort of forced some previous ambigious rules to be clarified. I don't like all the rulings that have come out though, but am glad to have them none the less).

6

Hey, it could be worse.

 

I recently played a game of Twilight Imperium (which lasted 11 hours, as such games do) in which I may or may not have won, depending on a particular interaction* which was unclear.  The question has been asked before - it's a fairly simple scenario - but it has never been answered, and no consensus was ever reached in discussions about it.

 

*To summarize briefly - one of my goals required me to destroy a base.  I played a card which caused a game state in which a base was destroyed by a state based effect.  Does that count towards my goal?  Maybe.

7

 

I was going to ask this exact question, well more in line with powerhounds answer with Legacy's cards. But thanks fort asking so I didn't have to, I also assumed it worked with appling the damage reduction first.

8

Add in a smoke bombs redirect and Legacy can take 0 damage.

9

Scholar's Flesh to Iron wouldn't work for Legacy, in that case then.

10

The redirect lowers it by 1 as well, so 5-3-1-1=0.  

11

Just double checking, I'm sure the below is correct and long established.

If tempest has shielding winds (if a hero target takes 5 or more damage from a single source, reduce by 2) in play and legacy hass superhuman durability (if legacy takes 5 or more damage from a single source, reduce by 3) and takes 5 damage, it can only be reduced to a minimum of 2, correct ? (by choosing to apply superhuman durability first, and then being unable to reduce it using shielding winds as the damage count is less then 5)

But if he takes 7 damage he could use the effects of both cards to reduce it to 2 (choosing to active shielding winds to take it to 5, then superhuman durability to reduce it by 3 to 2).

Strange, I've never really played Legacy as a tank :/

12

And don't forget Fortitude, which will reduce it by another point :).

13

Yes, that is all correct.

14

Legacy is fantastic as a tank. Next Evolution making him completely immune to one type of damage is very useful, but even better when you remember that it isn't limited. Two Next Evolution cards, plus the Legacy Ring, can allow Legacy to complete ignore two types of damage a round, which is often enough to bypass everything. Combine with Lead From The Front to redirect damage to him, and you wind up with the whole team being mostly untouchable. Fortitude and Superhuman Durability are just icing on the cake for dampening the little bits that get through.

This is without even getting into the cards that stop attacks againt the rest of the team, or prevent enemies from attacking.

The cost is obviously that you're spending your whole power phase on this, but Inspiring Presence will give everyone a passive buff anyway, and you can always drop one of the Next Evolution plays if you really need that extra +1 to attack.

15

As far as tanking, I prefer Granda Legacy. Someone always has a beneficial power to use, & if he is just tanking, he can continually give himself a next evolution play while slowly healing.

16

Absolutely, the 2x Next Evolution + Legacy Ring Strategy is only enhanced by picking AG Legacy. Nothing changes except that you've added healing to the mix, and you have a bit more flexibility on rounds where you can spare a power use.