If DW Fixer is able to play styles to destroy, leaving both Jack Handle and Harmony in play, 4 rounds after the bloody knuckles round will be when DW Fixer has dealt the same amount as Mr. Fixer. At the same time, Mr. Fixer could play Overdrive, increasing the number of rounds by 2 with each one he plays.
I think you read way too much into a off-hand example and missed the entire thrust of what I was trying to say in both posts.
Of course I am reading into an example that I solely posted here to say is a bad example. So I am not missing the point of any post, I understand completely what has been said, but I am not here to join in on that discussion, as that is between the rest of you folks. My entire focus was pointing out that if DW Fixer wants to do 7 to all non-hero targets, he'll either need to destroy other folks stuff to keep his cards out or do nothing until that time. If it is the latter, then Mr. Fixer will out damage him when it reaches that point. If you want to know what I would do with DW Fixer using those same cards without help, read Brathwhite's post.
Here's all I am going to say about DW Fixer versus Mr. Fixer.
Do I think DW Fixer is better than Mr. Fixer? No.
Do I think Mr. Fixer is better than DW Fixer? No.
Do I think Mr. Fixer and DW Fixer play differently? Yes.
If you even have a hand full of tools, that is. x2 Charge, Overdrive, Salvage Yard would be a rather disaterous hand if you are looking to start striking anytime soon.
Lets try and keep this in focused. The entire discussion here is whether DWFixer is wholesale better than OGFixer. Given that, Ronways breakdown was appropriate. The answer is still a resounding "No".
No one is saying that DWFixer can't belt out more damage than OGFixer, but for some reason, people fall into that easy trap of "Big Numbers = More Damage = More Better". I did a ton of theorycraft for ElitistJerks during my time as a raid leader in WoW, and this was a common phenomenon. Damage is not everything. Important yes, but not the sole stick by which we should measure somethings worth.
Apologies, I am probably mostly responsible for what you're alluding to, and did not mean to give that impression. I just get tired of typing "ongoing or equipment" again and again…I wish SOTM used a combined term for them for the sake of brevity.
destroying his own stuff can clear up the issue of having a huge hand and nothing worth playing
I am not aware of having ever had a "huge hand" with Fixer; he has no card-drawing power and only Salvage Yard for recursion, and he is not high on the list of heroes most likely to skip a turn to draw 2.
1. Often an extra point of damage on round 1 is worth far more than 3 damage 2 rounds later. This can work in favor of either Fixer. A first turn Crowbar can be just what you need vs. Chairman or Dawn, no matter which Fixer you use. It may suck blowing it up, but the impact those minions have may be way worse. Original Fixer doesn't give that dilemna, but he doesn't have the first turn damage potential af DW Fixer. The Jackhandle first round question is very different if your opponent is Voss. First turn jack->Bitter Strike can take out all of Voss's minions in one shot, but a quick forced deployment makes the original Fixer's setup look a lot better. Numbers can't tell the whole story with Fixer, he's not about being the best damage dealer, he's about fixing the immediate problem.
2. Build to your team. If we are optimizing heroes, which any debate of which version is better is inherently going to involve; we need to remember that this game isn't about heroes, it's about teams. if your team is Legacy, Tachyon, Chrono Ranger and Fixer you are better off with regular Fixer, you don't have stuff to destroy and your team can benefit far more from Fixer's reliablility and support than DW Fixer's increased damage and cost. It isn't about which one is better in a vacuum.
3. DW Fixer does not like one of regular Fixer's best combos, Wrench/Mantis, while he is much better equipped to use Riveting Crane. A Nightmare open for Dawn is Anvil and Truth, that first turn -2 and Truth's HP to burn before you get to the damage dealers is nasty. Regular Fixer can tiger and then crowbar and be effective, DW can riveting crane Truth and make everyone's day easier. Same with Apostate and his -2 damage runes of doom.
Both Fixer's are good, and they have their moments when the shine. The best part of DW Fixer is how drastically he changes the playstyle of the deck. He's the best promo card (for that drastic change in playstyle) since Young Legacy.
Personally, I would contest this. While Bitter Strike definitely changes things up, it still leaves Fixer dealing damage rather than doing other things, so I would contend that Dark Watch Nightmist is a much bigger shift from the original. Her default version takes damage to draw a ton of cards, then plays spells with unpredictable effects; DW Misty is a lot slower and safer, playing more like Visionary and Absolute Zero. I've often said that original Nightmist could just about solo certain villains, while I'd never try that with DWNM, but on the other hand DWNM has absurdly good combos with the Scholar and so forth, and nothing about normal Misty even suggests this. I'd say she's the biggest shift by far of the DW promos.
My point is that DW Fixer changes his interaction with his team completely, from the guy in the corner doing his own thing and helping you, to the carry that you are all working to support.
@Envisioner - DW Nightmist is very different as well I agree. Though for me, the change in her play is more similar to the two Fanatics in that the focus changes and card priority shifts, but the general playstyle is similar. Nightmist is still a "gambler", or high blind risk/reward playstyle character (Setback, while not released, will be her contemporary in that regard), but she gives up deep deck mining to reduce the "blindness" of her gambles, but the playstyle remains relativly similar. Contrast this with daddy/daughter Legacy. Papa Legacy is primarily a support/buffer playstyle character, while Young Legacy shifts that to primary damage dealer with team buffs. The two Fixers share a similar playstyle change, in that you are moving from a primary support playstyle to a pure damage brawler where the "support" aspects take more of a back seat. But thats just my experience, characters can be played with multiple playstyles in mind.
Heroic Interception. Take Down. HUD Goggles. Pushing the Limits. Any bounty if Chrono has Ranger's Mark in hand or Bounty Board in hand and Jim's Hat on the table. Or any of Chrono's masses of extra equipment or Legacy's masses of extra Ongoings.
Fixer's tool box allows extra card draws and can be blown up for DW Fixer. And I routinely have a huge hand of cards I don't use as regular Fixer. Once I get my current optimal style and tool combo the other styles, tools and meditations just start stacking up. DW Fixer in the meantime ends up with hands full of Overdrive instead.
I just commented on this over in the promo thread, but I totally agree. I'd add AZ and Elemental Wrath AZ to the list though. It takes him from a slow setup tanky/kinda damage dealer to a turn 1 damage dealer with significantly reduced tanking potential. Definitely agree with the other 2 though.
not true at all, Rapid Recon gets cards in her trash faster, making for deadlier Lightspeed Barrages.... ok that's about all I got. The picture on the original card looks way cooler.
Only faster until you get Hud Goggles, Research Grant or Lightning Reflexes, and only faster when you trash cards.
Hud Goggles and Lightning Reflexes limit the effectiveness of Recon, since you are still only drawing 1 card but playing more, and when your hand runs out TLT and Hud still puts two cards in the trash, but you get to play both, instead of play one trash one. Which makes it better.
If in an average match you were to gain even 4 cards in the trash over TLT, which is most likely high, and we assume that you never run out of cards in hand you are still weighing maybe 6 points of damage from vortex if played early, and at most 12 points from Barrage.
18 points is pretty easy to make up when your team is getting fed cards all game.
Expatriette, Chrono Ranger, The Scholar, Bunker, Fanatic, Nightmist, Omnitron-X, Haka, Tempest, Adept (and his teammates) all can either play extra carsd or use them as discards to help their game, all of them can't really have too many cards. Every Hero benefits greatly, especially early in the game from extra cards, getting through your deck faster might mean the difference between having teh exact right card to deal with a situation or that card being 3 cards down in your decka dn your team losing.
I think the original guide undersells the Tire Iron. It isn't only useful if you have to change damage type; changing to projectile is a bonus. But the "kill under 2 HP" effect is great against minions. He can instantly take out any of Voss's minions without any other enhancements, for instance, making it a really good early-game play.
And don't discount all the times that the environment or the villain deck will give DR to everyone, minions included. The Gene Bound Guard might not be the highest priority target, but if Fixer has the Tire Iron and Alternating Tiger Claw out, he can save everyone a lot of trouble by taking him out. In a five-hero game, it can be the equivalent of doing at least six extra points of damage (+2 from Fixer's Tire Iron, +1 at least for everyone else who doesn't have to worry about enemy DR for the rest of the round).
It might not be devastating but this is a game where every little bit counts. If Mr. Fixer can take out that annoying minion in one round, that means that Ra or AZ or Bunker can focus their fire somewhere more important.
I find tire iron useless more times than not. It can be very useful in the right circumstances, but with regular Fixer I find myself usually a point of damage too short to really use it. I find it a little more useful with DW Fixer, even if you're using it essentially as a one shot. Took down an MDP that was at 5 HP one game, and that was pretty cool.
I agree that Tire Iron is underrated, but still, it’s situational and if I have the option I will more likely reach for the Crowbars. In miniony games or games where the villain gets a lot of protection, yeah, it is quite useful.
The other day, a Fixed Point allowed me to chuck Hoist Irons around. Those are generally my two least favorite tools, but they worked quite well in tandem with some Charges and Overdrives. Useful against high HP targets and low alike!
Tire Iron can be a great combo with Alternating Tiger Claw against high DR opponents. I was playing against Apostate in the game, and, as usual, he was able to get out relics with incredibly high DR. Being able to knock them out when they hit 3 HP -- especially for the gauntlet and the tome -- was very handy. Low HP and high DR targets don't tend to be incredibly common, but like most of Mr. Fixer's abilities, it's situational: I threw out Jack Handle at one point and had Unity hit him with the card that lets someone use a power with +2 damage.
Riveting Crane is the style I tend to use the least, though it's vital many foes if you have Chrono-Ranger on your team to let him operate at complete functionality.