And exactly how often are you NOT in one of those scenarios? Pretty much every hero is either setup-intensive or has nothing but one-shots. The only hero I can think of who might be happy to spare stuff for DWMF is Haka, since he draws a lot of cards and often has duplicates of his equipment. Wraith fits those criteria too, but she likes to keep her duplicate equipment so she can Inventory Barrage mid-game and then recover. Expatriette has the duplicate Guns to spare but no way of drawing cards, and don't even think about asking Nightmist for anything. Unity might occasionally have more Equipment than Bots and be able to spare you a Supply Crate, but that's a pretty terrible situation for her to be in. Apart from perhaps Legacy, every other hero I can think of needs as much of their stuff in play as possible, except for Tachyon and maybe Ra or Fanatic, who are in the "almost all one-shots" camp.
I'm with Foote here. Though I agree that, in general, DW Fixer seems to be a straight up improvement, it seems to me that vanilla and DW Fixer aren't even playing the same game. DW Fixer is more martial artist than mechanic, while Vanilla Fixer is more mechanic than martial artist, which kind of makes sense thematically. What do you care about fixing cars when you're risen from the dead?
Thats... not exactly true. let me explain.
There are several heroes, even ones who routinely rely on their equipment, who have cards and abilities that can benefit from DW fixer.
Let me preface this by saying that DW fixer should ALWAYS go first in the turn order to be of maximum benefit. This way he can eat all of the cards that normally go away at "start of turn". This helps him destroy other peoples stuff that would normally go away on its own, or stuff from heroes who do not/cannot pay its upkeep cost. This includes heroes like: Tachyon, Haka, Legacy, The Scholar, Fanatic, Ra, and more.
Even setup intensive heroes can synergize wonderfully with DW fixer in specific circumstances. Bunker can sacrifice his modes (if he is going to drop out of it anyway), or things like the Gatling gun/omnicannon (if he can't pay for it anymore/has no cards). AZ can even do things like sacrificing modules/equipment, so that he can get some fun out of cards like modular realignment that pulls them out of the trash (and then does damage).
Nightmist is a borderline case, in that she tends to always run her own game. but even she has things like the sabulet (which is useless once she has zero cards), mistbound (which goes away) and mist form (which she might want to come out of anyway).
Wraith does tend to need what she has, but I've certainly been in games where she gets several impromptu inventions and has a whole host of equipment- some of which she isn't using. While an inventory Barrage is good times, it might be worth it to let Mr Fixer eat something, especially if it is also coupled with a style/tool that provides a benefit to the group as a whole.
I'm not saying that it isn't possible for everyone else to always need everything that they have all the time. I've been in games where that has happened, but if you are willing to negotiate, talk with your partners, and think ahead- you can find a LOT of options.
And if I'm in a game where everyone needs what they have, when I'm playing DW Fixer, I go with the flow. I eat my styles, I use bloody knuckles as a one-shot, and if I really have a tool I want, I'll skip a power turn to get ahead of the destruction curve.
Braith, you have much more understanding friends than I do it seems. If I tried to blow everyone elses stuff up instead of my own every turn, I'd quickly be out of a group to play with. I know there are great cards to blow up due to Start of Turn destruction, but it really is not as common as you are suggesting in actual game senarios (it's the difference between practical and theoretical application of abilities and interactions). And this might just be me (probably is), but we always randomize player order. Having the same heros always go first can get stale pretty fast we have found.
Unless you are playing solo, the fact is that DW Fixer is going to focus on his own cards destruction for a large majority of the time. Given that truth, and the playstyle that inevitably emerges from it, the difference between the two Fixers will be very apparent.
When you really wish you hadn't eaten your Driving Mantis a turn ago to keep your Jackhandle out and are now getting pumled, or when you first get to that "ummm...where did my hand go?" moment, you will see what I mean.
I do have very understanding friends, and its one of the great joys of playing Sentinels (and any other game, really).
I'm not discounting your interpretation, but I do disagree. I find regular Mr fixer to be extremely frustrating because he is easily foiled by damage resistance, and relies on specific tools/styles to overcome this problem. And if you don't get them, you can spend the entirety of the game drawing card after card while your (understanding, wonderful) friends get to have fun.
With DW Fixer, you get to be effective, always. sometimes you have to make the hard choice to skip a power to get something you really want.
This might be a playstyle difference- I generally dislike playing a support character, and find DW fixer to be far more satisfying now that he can hit harder. I'll own up to my own biases in that area!
As for the scenarios where you wish that you hadn't eaten X to respond to situation Y... I've never run into that. If I have a style/tool that I want, I'll ask and see if someone can help me keep it and use a power. If no one can, then I put out something sacrificial (generally a style), or put out the tool if i have something that can be sacrificed next turn for more immediate benefit/synergy with that tool (like bloody knuckles). I'm not saying that it isn't possible, it just has not been an issue. In general, I've found it to be much the same as when Unity is playing. She never eats equipment without permission (though I do realize that this is possible, and some people do it), and she negotiates the destruction by what will benefit everyone the most. If its to get out Stealthy in Pike chemical (specially with those darn trisolvent vats!), then its an easy call. If its to get out a single raptor bot (that is likely to get destroyed), then its likely that Unity will not be getting anyone's OK.
the only aspect that I have found that mirrors what you are describing are when I am with a team that allows for out-of-turn power usage. It can get very difficult when the Adept is letting someone play a power to convince people to sacrifice even MORE of their things. But if you've got enough to offer, then maybe you can sway them.
It's also worth offering up things like The Staff of Ra, if Ra would otherwise throw it to get a new one out, and even Chrono-Ranger can make a valuable ally if up against, say, Iron Legacy, and thus having no use for several of his bounties. You also tend to get more damage out of destroying a useless bit of Wraithquipment instead of one of your own than the two damage Wraith will get from a Barrage.
I do not want to discount your own experiences, but this just has not reflected mine with DW Fixer.
I am still convinced that a vast majority of your turns will involve you sacking your own cards. Given that, power cycling your tools/styles with ones from your hand will deplete your hand within a few rounds especially as you start using your grease guns/charges/salvage, and Toolbox is not easily found when you need it. Every few rounds you will go 1-3 turns with not Striking depending on the luck of your draw. You are pretty much breaking even with original Fixer if we are talking about "down" turns waiting for another card to power cycle. And if you happen to draw a tool when you really like/need the one you have, you can either cycle it and deal damage and be worse off next round or wait another round and hope for a style to cycle. The same holds true with tools/styles reversed.
The reality here is that every tool/style is not well suited for every situation that you can be presented with, and thats where you start to see the chinks in DWFixers armor in real game settings. When you are forced into a tool/style setup you would rather not be in when Original Fixer would have had no trouble adapting quickly. Where as DW Fixer can be waiting a good while to draw the right card to continue an effective power cycle, OGFixer is sitting in the same position with a hand full of cards waiting to change and adapt.
I am not saying DWFixer isn't awesome (because he is!!). But there really needs to be a better understanding of his cons to shine a light on the pros of the original.
I'm with Braithwhite.... I find normal fixer to be a mix of cool combined with a frusterating lack of ability. I think the DW variant helps him immensely. I'd even go as far to say that the DW fixer card is the best promo card so far in terms of how much it benefits the hero in question. Probably the overall second-most-powerful promo card next to TL-Tach.
I guess I also have understanding fiends and approach team-stuff destruction in much the same way as Braithwhite. We tend to play to help the team. Even to the degree that people will deliberately play cards *just* so that DW Fixer can fuel his power. Even one-shot heavy heros do this. Take Ra's Living Conflagration as a perfect example. You can use it to do its 2 damage, and then get rid of it with Fixer. He can only use 1 power/turn anyway, unless something says different, and as often as not that is Pyre. Drawn to the Flame often is a fodder card as well. We once had a game (we won) where Ra pretty much did nothing but play Staff of Ra (heal-3), use pyre, and then lose staff of Ra to Fixer's power for several turns. Then Fixer played Salvage Yard and we repeated the process. It probably saved us the game.
Fixer's styles and tools are so much more potent with Bitter Strike. Jack Handle is a major beneficiary. Jack Hanlde on DW fixer does as much damage as jack handle, Grease Monkey Fist, and Harmony on classic fixer. With those extra buff cards DW fixer can deal 5 damage to all non-hero targets. With Bloody Knuckles and that, it's 7 damage to all non-hero targets. That's by himself, with no help from anybody.
But the best by far is probably Riveting Crane Style. Before this card was just increidbly difficult to make strong use of. Now, even with a lot of enemy Damage Reduction, it's fairly easy to get at least 1 point of damage in with Bitter Strike and make your entire team deal irreduceable damage that round. I'd say that's well worth the sacrifice of an ongoing or equipment card. If he's got Jack Handle out it could be all heroes irriduceable damage to all non-hero targets. Wow.
I've found that DW fixer is often well-served by opting out of power useage on his first turn. Most people are going to want to play their best cards, and you likely don't have the best tools yourself. Just play a card, choose not to use a power, and draw a card. It will make your setup go a lot smoother from that point forward.
Finally I'm much more likely to use all of Fixer's tools. If I don't need to use the Jack Handle this turn, I can play something like the Tire Iron, take the Jack Handle back into my hand, do my 3 damage to 1 target, and destroy the Tire Iron and still have my Jack Handle. I think this promotes a more fun 'mode-switching' kind of fixer. Style switching happens too, but you have to plan ahead a bit more.
Listing optimal and idealized situations is all well and good. But it doesn't offer an objective evaluation, especially if we are talking about DWFixer vs OGFixer. So you can understand my hesitation to agree with you.
Go play against any villain/environment with any small amount of discarding effects. Tell me how constantly effective he is. While Dawn is forcing you to discard your hand and destroying your teamates stuff, yeah, you will be doing a whole lot I'm sure. Say hello to at least 2-3 rounds of setup (assuming a good draw and not an overdrive or two).
He is a great promo character, he is not wholesale better than OGFixer. He has his own unique set of disadvantages that have to be addressed if you want to make any compelling argument toward that point (which has not happened by anyone making that claim).
If you want to make the argument that given both characters having great draws and ideal situations, that DWFixer would be much more effective than OGFixer, I would not hesitate to agree. However, trying to evaluate any hero on that basis has very little value to real gameplay.
Thanks for the replies. I expected it would be a few days before I saw anything.
@ foote
Any hero is at a disadvantage against a villain that blasts their hand and gear/ongoings. Its always painful. I do see what you are saying, in that in those specific situations, DW fixer would be at more of a disadvantage for rebuilding. however, I also think that in those specific situations, Regular Mr fixer would ALSO be in a terrible situation, and without a very good style/tool as backup, he'd be in even worse straits for helping the team.
I feel that this is a question of perspective, and I want to make sure that you understand the basis for my statements.
In the case of a total wipe (all cards gone, all ongoings/equips gone), DW fixer can put out 3 damage, no matter what he has in his hand (except an overdrive, but in the case of a full wipe...). If he has a few cards, or a few things remain on the table, then the equations shift. It all depends on who can be of the most use. I've never heard any complaints about sacrificing if it meant getting a specific citizen (such as Tears) out of play...which DW fixer is far better able to do. Of course, maybe one of your teammates is in a bettewr position to eliminate the threat that is causing the wipes or discards, and then it is their stuff that needs to be protected.
In the case of regular Mr fixer, a wipe (all cards/all ongoings/equips) puts him back even worse than DW fixer. he doesn't have to eat cards, but it is much less likely that he'll be able to eliminate the external threats that are eating your hand/cards in play. In the case of a threat that causes discards, Mr fixer is even worse off, because he is far less likely to be able to put out the damage necessary (given that his base damage is only one) without a tool/style that is of immediate use. So its entirely possible (and this has happened against dawn more than I enjoy) that Citizen Truth is laughing at you while Tears/Sweat strip your cards away and Mr Fixer punches fruitlessly, unable to do anything.
thats the major point that I feel that you are overlooking- DR (damage resist) of 1 has a terrible effect on base fixer's ability to influence combat. Riveting Crane and the hoist chain need you to get through that one point of damage in order to do anything. This, in turn, means that in order to maximize his battle control abilities, you need to have the tool/style that gives you enough of a damage boost to overcome any armor (or bypass it). You can build up, but it requires that you have the right cards- and given that he only plays 1/draws 1, you are very unlikely to get a large range of options without luck, playing the toolbox (and only the toolbox) for multiple turns, or team support. There is no question that he can be a master of flexibility. Please understand that Mr Fixer is one of my favorite heroes for just this reason! But it can also be an intensely frustrating experience.
With DW Fixer, I find myself much less fettered by what I have available. Even in situations where I only have one or two cards, I'm still hitting hard and helping the team. Yes, it can suck when everything is stripped away...but thats true of any hero. Its difficult to recover for any hero under those circumstances, and sometimes you just lose because of it!
However, what about the turns getting to that without any help? Lets say the first turn, both Mr. Fixers play their trusty Jack Handle, however we are going to that set-up without help. So only base Mr. Fixer can use a power this round, dealing 1 to non-hero targets. Second turn, both Mr. Fixers ready their Grease Monkey Fist, still only base Mr. Fixer can only use a power, leading to 2 damage to all non-hero targets. Third round, both play Harmony, still only base Fixer can strike, dealing 3 damage to non-hero targets. On the fourth round, each Mr. Fixer plays Bloody Knuckles, now DW Fixer can use strike, dealing the 7 damage to all non-hero targets. While Mr. Fixer will be striking for 5, however he has already built up 6 damage from the previous rounds. Meaning Base Fixer has dealt 11 damage to all non-hero targets, 4 more damage than DW Fixer.
All this discussion of old and new Fixer has decided me in favor of playing him in the Nemesis Marathon challenges this week, even though it means going up against the Chairman. I used him a lot a while ago, but have neglected him lately, so it's time to give this often-frustrating hero another chance to impress me.
I'm curious as to why you regard original Fixer as being highly adaptable. I see his Styles, and to a lesser extent even his Tools, punishing him for any attempt to adapt. Generally, my objective as Fixer is to play a Tool, a Style, maybe a Harmony, and then nothing but Charges and Overdrives and Bloody Knuckles and maybe a Grease Gun or Salvage Yard. I almost never switch Styles, because doing so means throwing a card away…on those rare occasions I have more than one Style card, I try to wait to play one until it becomes apparent what would be most useful for the match, but once I have a Style down, only a very dire need makes me willing to suffer the card disadvantage of playing a new one. Switching tools is easier because you don't lose a card, but you do lose a play, so it's still a material sacrifice. I consider him far less adaptable than he could be…if I were designing him to be adaptable, I'd make it so Tools and Styles alike not only returned to your hand when played, but gave you back your play (in some fashion that didn't create any sort of a loop), thus that if you play Pipe Wrench and then next turn realize you have to switch to Tire Iron, it didn't make it a waste of your last play phase to have played Pipe Wrench, and thus not played something like Charge. Yes, it can be strategically wise to save a Charge or the like for when it will be more powerful, but sometimes you have to kill a villain target now, not wait, and so I see Fixer's CIP clauses as punishing him for making any rash decisions, even though he absolutely MUST sometimes make them.
This seems like a very contrived scenario. You could just as easily say:
DW plays jack handle, does nothing. Fixer plays jack handle, deals all 1 damage.
2nd turn, DW plays a style, hitting everything for 3-4 (depending on the style), then eating the style. Fixer plays grease monkey, hitting all for 2. (total 3 to all for base fixer)
3rd turn, DW plays (insert style), hitting all for 3-4 (depending on if he has another grease monkey fist). Fixer plays harmony, and hits all for 3.
So far, the totals are 6-8 total for DW, Fixer at 6. This scenario requires Fixer to have jack handle, grease monkey, and harmony in his starting hand, or to get them in his initial draws. The DW scenario requires DW to have the jack handle, and some assorted sacrificial cards.
Continuing, (3rd round)- DW plays bloody knuckles, hitting all for 5 (then eating the card, so he suffers no ill effects). Fixer plays bloody knuckles, hitting all for 4 (then having it stick around, which could be painful). this brings the total to 11-13 for DW, 11 for Base Fixer.
If you continue the experiment on from here, DW has to keep playing sacrificial cards (we are assuming a game where no one is willing to sacrifice any of their stuff) in order to maintain 3/4/5 points of damage to all targets (depending on if he plays a random style/toolbox, grease monkey fist, or bloody knuckles). Fixer (base) has more flexibility in what he plays in terms of charges/bloody knuckles, but his style and harmony are a necessity, so if he loses them he's back to square one.
The real meat of this is that DW has a harder time getting the most out of cards like Overdrive and charge, wheras they are nothing but good times for Fixer (once he is set up). DW has a harder time if the enemy has damage immunities, as he has to get (and keep out) grease monkey fist. Regular Fixer has a much harder time dealing with armored enemies, as they require him to wait until he has a tool/style that can overcome them.
the point I'm trying to make is that IF you try and play DW Fixer in the EXACT same way as his base card, you are going to have some problems. And this isn't taking into account damage resistance, which can shut down regular Mr. fixer pretty hard! In the scenario you posit above, he'd do nothing the first round (because he can't do anything against 1 DR, and then he'd have to really hope that he had the right style for the subsequent play. Or he would HAVE to go for a tool that had a +1 damage bonus, even if it wasn't as useful as the Jack handle for the situation at hand! But then, thats the entire POINT of a promo card. It encourages you to think of the character in a different light, and try new tactics- especially if that character relies heavily on their base power!
@Braithwhite, ask yourself a few questions. What did Ronway's post originally quote? What was in Ronway's post? Was Ronway's post solely in response to that quote?
By answering these questions, you would come to the conclusion that my post, is a response to awp832's comment. Said comment mentions DW Mr. Fixer can deal 7 damage in a single round with those cards in play, without help from any other hero. While my response is stating, that if DW Fixer and Fixer had those same exact cards and spent 4 rounds playing each of those 4 cards, that Mr. Fixer would out damage DW Fixer in those 4 rounds. My post never stated to be in disagreement with your post.
So I ask this question, what in your post is a response to my own?
Ronway, I misread your post and overreacted to what I perceived as a deliberately misleading statement. It was wrong, and I apologize. I'll be more careful in the future.
That is a rather common occurence here, we're all fairly quick on the draw.
@everyone else
Just making sure I was reading too much into my quick reading of all the posts, but there for a while it seemed like all the examples and arguements involved just other players equipments, not their ongoings which makes Bitter Strike seem more limiting than it actually is. As for the pros and cons… well it seems to me that everyone is essentially right. DW Fixer hits harder, giving him the ability to break through DR, and destroying his own stuff can clear up the issue of having a huge hand and nothing worth playing, especially since it gives his cards which bring stuff back from the trash more spotlight. However, another destruction effect on the field can dry up his pool of resources too fast, and it becomes incredibly difficult to maintain the same style and tool for mutliple turns. Also, my first game, personally, I felt he was less effective because I had nothing I was willing to sacrifice (I play mostly solo) so he just sat around doing nothing. But, my cousin played him the other day and dual crowbars plus bloody knuckles was a beautiful thing to watch and other turns I was more than willing to get rid of ground pound and a second dominion to let him bust things up.
That doesn't hold up 100% though Ronway, I mean, we're trying to talk about it here like we're in a vaccum. Even DR-1 would put a huge damper on Classic Fixer's damage output in that scenario and effect DW-Fixer's damage output very little. Total damage to all non-hero targets over 4 rounds (and DR-0) is a statistic that is very seldomly relevant. I was just using the single example of Fixer's potential 7 damage round as something that Fixer can do if he gets the right cards. It wasn't something I was advocating that he should try to do every round, or even every game. You try to do damage to all non-heroes when you need to. If you don't need to, then use another Tool, and throw that away. Anyway, high burst-damage is generally more useful in this game than little damage over a long period of time, due to the way that DR works.
DW-fixer is all about correctly determining what is disposeable and what is not. Sometimes the most disposeable card is one of your things. Sometimes it's one of your ally's things. On rare circumstance there might not *be* anything disposeable, in which case you either need to play something that you can get rid of, or not use Bitter Strike on that turn.
And while sacrificing a card to Bitter Strike *is* getting help from another hero, let's be clear here, it's less-so than usual. It's not like there needs to be a particular hero, a particular combo, anybody can sacrifice an ongoing or equipment for Fixer. Does not matter who you have on your team. I often find that there are games where heroes simply have very little that is beneficial to play, so in that case there is no reason not to give Fixer some Bitter Strike material. I'm just saying that setting up for a Bitter Strike is a lot easier than any other cross-hero combo.
Well then, with a DR of 1 added to the previous 4 rounds, Fixer's end damage would be 7 and DW Fixer's drop to 6. Look at that, Fixer still out damaged DW Fixer for those 4 rounds. It takes DR 2 for DW Fixer to out damage Fixer with the same system.
I was just using the single example of Fixer's potential 7 damage round as something that Fixer can do if he gets the right cards.Yes, and I was using an example that with no help, those 4 rounds leading to DW Fixer's triumphant 7 damage, Fixer would out damage DW Fixer with those same cards. Don't forget, without any help!
And while sacrificing a card to Bitter Strike *is* getting help from another hero, let's be clear here, it's less-so than usual.A little help is still help, is it not?
If you notice I didn't reply to a lot of stuff, it is because I do feel the need to respond to comments about the game mechanics, which Fixer is better, or the methods of using DW Fixer. I am here to only point out, for DW Fixer to deal 7 damage to all non-hero targets with no help from anybody, he would do nothing for the 3 rounds to get Jack Handle, Grease Monkey Fist, and Harmony into play. While Mr. Fixer would of racked up more damage during his time getting those cards in play, also without help. Now until someone else post something I feel like responding to, i'll be in the Ronway cave.
kay? I mean I never really contested that. Anyway, you're leaving off exactly as DW-fixer gets going. Over the next several rounds is where DW-fixer will show his superiority, but you have to be willing to toss tools and such. I think you read way too much into a off-hand example and missed the entire thrust of what I was trying to say in both posts.