really? Perhaps its my naivete that makes the distinction feels trivial.
As others have stated in the above posts, its clear that there are many instances in any game when several "things occur simoutaneously" in which the order of resolution is left up for the players to dictate.
I think it's the exact same case when dealing with Argent's instruments. From the literal texts of the instruments, I think it's clear that the card has a perform and accompany text be activated simultaneously.
If it's up to the players to decide the order in which villain cards' end-turn effects are played during the end phase of the villain due to them activating simultaneously, then I think it makes perfect sense to apply the same rule of thum to argent in allowing the player to decide which text's effects to resolve first and which second.
As others have stated in the above posts, its clear that there are many instances in any game when several "things occur simoutaneously" in which the order of resolution is left up for the players to dictate.
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You only get to choose the order when a single effect will have simultaneous results. For example, if a card says deal 2 damage to 3 targets, you can choose the order the targets take the damage. However, if there are multiple effects that would happen "simultaneously", then they happen in the order they came into play. If they are on a single card, the card happens in order. For example, with Wrest the Mind, first the target takes damage, then Visonary. This order is very specific, so that the Visionary won't take damage if the target is destroyed first.
All cards that have an end-of-turn effect have to happen in the order that there came into play. Players cannot choose the order in which they activate.
Use all the instruments & vocalize in one turn, one way to do this... are there better ways? This is coming from the OP's statement that Subdominant's accompany can be used multiple timesin one turn. (pardon the absence of the proper names for the instruments and certain cards, don't own the game nor have I committed them to memory)
Requirements: Inspiring supertonic and alactritous subdominant and a polyphoric flare. (That's it).
Card play phase: Use Polyphoric Flare oneshot: Take two damage and use a power immediately Use power to play the harp.
Play the harp ~ Perform of Supertonic and Accompany of subdominant~ 2 powers to use. Play one power on the guitar and one power on the bell.
Play the Guitar ~ Perform of Supertonic again and the accompany of any rhythem card of the players choice, if any are present. Play the Bell~ Perform of any Rhythem card if any are present and play the accompany of dubdominant again.
Once again, 2 powers to use~ one on the drums and one on the horn. Play the Drums~ use if any melody performs or rhythem accompanies if any are present Play the Horn~ Any melody that may be present, then for the 3rd time, use the accompany of subdominant to gain another power.
power: Use on the flutes ~ any two melodies of the players choice... End of Card playing Phase
Beginning of Powerphase Power Phase: Vocalize.
Net gain: Two Rhythem accompanies One Rhythem Perform Four Melodies One Vocalize
Yes, you can use Perform and Accompany texts multiple times from the same card in a single turn (if you have the means to do so), as they aren't powers - the instruments are powers, so you'd only be able to use each of those once (plus Vocalise), but you can use the songs as many times as you like :).
Well, you said "This is coming from the OP's statement that Subdominant's accompany can be used multiple times in one turn", implying that you weren't sure whether it was an official rule or not and were just going by what someone else has said. I just thought I'd confirm that it is :).
There isn't a Guitar, sadly (it's actually Telamon's Lyra, which is actually a lute not a lyre, and a lute resembles a ukelele more than a guitar). Maybe we'll get a promo future version of AA who has one.
More importantly, though, the Subdominant is destroyed after the resolution of the power it gives you...I'm not saying it's impossible to get it used three times, but double-check that you have the timing right.
Envisioner is right, the key to using a single copy of Subdominant multiple times is the idea that it isn't destroyed until you fully resolve the power it grants you, and that each of Adepts extra powers are resolved now. (Meaning that if one power grants you another power, that new power is resolved before the first one is considered finished, or even before it activates a second song if the first activation granted the power).
So in your example of the instruments in that order, Harp -> supertonic -> Lyra/guitar -> supertonic -> Bell -> subdominant -> drum would work, but then the subdominant would be destroyed after the Bell was done and before the Harp could activate it. You can do essentially the same thing though, if you swap the order of the drums and the bell.
Of course, alternatively your are free to house rule all of his 'use a power now' to be 'use an extra power this turn' (which is how Splurgendii seems to resolve them), but then that kind of undermines the justification for being able to use one Subdominant multiple times.
Very insightful… I took a leap of faith on decided to base this all instrument, hypothetical turn on the misinterpretation from the OP, which in hind sight made no sense.
Fascinating It's AFTER the power granted by the subdominant's accompany that triggers its selfdestruction. Therefore if the power granted from it is immediately used on the bell which through it resolution can reach the dominant's accompany a second time before its self destruction, it makes the play legitamate.
WIth the dominant gone after its second useage I'm at a loss on how to play the final instrument.
Does anybody have a complete hypothetical turn involving all instruments and vocalization?
Ah, thought about it again... given the new information~ Run this through your guys' head and let me know if you think this is legitamte.
One Turn: All instruments + vocalization. Requirements, same as before: Supertonic + Alacritous Subdominant + Prolyphric ... something, I forgot the name.
Card playing phase: Play prolyphic~ Argent Adept takes 2 damage and is able to use a power NOW. Take granted power and use it on the harp.
Harp: Supertonic + Subdominant~ 2 powers. (This next move is very specific and important). Seeing as how the resolution of the power granted from the supertonic does NOT trigger a self destruction for any card on its resolution, the next step in the turn is to use THAT power on the HORN!!! Activate the horn~ One melody of the players choice and another usage of the Subdominant's accompany ~ power in hand.
Now~ returning to the power granted from the first usage of the dominant's accompany, we now use that power on the bell!
And once again... seeing as its the "RESOLUTION" of the power that triggers the destruction of the dominant, we can use the bell to gain a rhythem perform and for the third time trigger the dominant's accompany before it destroys itself~ 2 powers in hand, Alactritous subdominant is now gone.
Now, one of the two powers in hand (doesn't matter which) is used on the lyra. Lyra: supertonic + rhythem accompany~ one more power giving the total amount back up to two again.
and finally, the two final powers, one is used on the drums and one on the fluts for one final rhythem accompany and whopping three melodies.
END of card playing phase (LOL)
Powerphase: Vocalize.
Final Net By my count. Two Rhythm Performances One Rhythem Accompany Four Melodies. One vocalize.
I don't think 'keeping powers in hand' is legal, so I'm not sure that works. I have never done this thing, but I wonder if I can sort it now quickly...
Hang on, no, simple solution: just use both copies of Alacritous Subdominant; one gets destroyed, and then you activate the other :D
I think the OP actually explained this rather clearly:
The whole idea is that you never have multiple 'powers in hand' with the way the Adept grants them. You just have the chain of powers that you are resolving. So when the Harp activates the perform of Supertonic, you immediately start resolving another power before the Harp activates a Harmony accompany.
So one possible sequence is:
Harp perform supertonic
Lyra/Guitar perform supertonic
Drum accompany Rythm
Drum perform melody
Lyra/Guitar accompany Rythm
Harp accompany subdominant
Bell perform Rythm
Bell accompany subdominant
Horn perform Melody
Horn accompany subdominant
Pipes perform Melody
Pipes perform a different Melody.
Then, you have completed the original power on the Horn. If that power was part of Polyphoric Flare or Silver Shadow, then you still have your normal power for Vocalize. There are alot of different sequences that work though. One option to keep in mind is chaining Silver Shadow and Polyphoric Flare together to burn an extra oneshot but free up one of your performs/accompanies which was being used on an extra power.
Is this principle true when dealing with Sumdominant's accompany? "The accompany grants a power which when said power is "resolved", it triggers the destruction of the card" (paraphrased) If that above is true… I think there's a problem with the sequence you shared, let's lay the whole thing out and zero in closely.
Two sequence of events beginning from the harp's activation
checks out, no problem.
2nd sequence of events beginning from the harp's accopany activation
The initial power granted from the subdominat's accopany; it's resolution is what triggers its self destruction right???
In your sequence, the first power granted form the subdominant's accompany is used on the bell therefore it's resolution is what triggers subdominant's destruction. If true, it should follow that regardless of how the Bell is resolved, once it is so the subdominant should be destroyed.
The bell's resolution is activating a rhythem perform and subdominant's accompany which is legitamate. However when these last two actions are performed the bell is resolved which then should trigger subdominant's destruction.
If all is true so far, then once the power obtained from the bell through the subdominant is used to activate the horn there shouldn't be a subdominant available for the horn to use on. Thus no power to use to activate the flutes.
The Bell isn't done until it has finished using the Subdominant, which includes using the power and destroying the card. Plus, finishing the power granted by Subdominant isn't really what causes subdominant to be destroyed. It is destroyed by completely resolving the Subdominant, but you can't do that until you finish resolving the power it grants.
The Accompany of Subdominant is basically two steps:
You may use a power now
If you did, destroy subdominant
So first the harp activates it, but it is still doing step 1 because the Bell is being resolved. Then the Bell activates it, and is also on step 1 while the Horn is used. Finally the Horn will activate it and is doing step 1 to use the Flutes. Then, once the Flutes are done, the Horn moves on to step 2 and now the Subdominant is destroyed. Then the Bell continues, but the card is already gone, and the same thing happens with the Harp.
I'm not sure if there has been an official ruling that this is how it is supposed to work, but resolving the steps in this way is the justification for re-using the Subdominant like this.
OK, so for fun I played a solo game of Greatest Legacy, Scholar, Omnitron-X, Argent Adept, in time cataclysm.
The entire point was to go through all the instruments as many times as possible in one round.
Well Omni hit cadence turn one, so the instruments got out quick.
When Fixed Point came out I was ready.
GLegs got everything but drum, Scholar did P&A, for all but drum again, then Omni pulled Silver Shadow which I had put back with Adept's vernal for all but perform. Adept dealt well over 100 damage before his turn, when he lost his +6 to damage.
