Accidental Second topic about Villains/Broken City/For Profit Preorder

I also play with my wife and daughter, and echo the sentiments of cmschex (my daughter just turned 7 and plays Wraith)

I've also turned players at our FLGS into SotM fans, and one of the biggest reasons all 12 of them play the game is the fandom of a 26 yr. old Physics major who reads comics.

She loves Tachyon, and actually bought a blond wig to cosplay as her.  Her major attraction to the game was the female characters being more accurately represented and not the typical comic book women, that was her entrypoint to the game.

I think one of the reasons this fan community is so great is this game attracts a lot of fans that appreciate that art direction.

I think there are a good number of us that get a bit jumpy about the thought of losing that.  There are so few places you can avoid that in comicy things, and we want to keep this one.

I don't think Adam's art moved so much into the "bad" direction, but it is probably related to the fact that I am an heterosexual male. Though the only super-hero I look at with ... interest is the original Wraith.

However, I fully support the idea that SotM should stay away from the "Muscle & Boobs" standard. And the idea that I like my super-heroes to be clothed in such a way that males and females around me can say "yes, I could wear that to save the world".

By the way - what does everyone think of Zhu Long's Operative ?

I can't put a finger on exactly why, but I prefer the Wraith's original character design compared to her look in Tactics.  People talk about Adam's art improving, and I can see the many ways in which it has, but I find something much more charming and  idiosyncratic about the style of the original Wraith in particular.

Ha!  It took a lot of strength to resist making that comment myself.  x)  Anyway… thanks for the support.  ;)

Love the new Operative, she's my favorite character in Tactics and love the new look she has in VotM. Also loving her new promo look in Tactics.

She looks Awesome.  She has the best outfits.

My personal theory is that this original costume seems at first glance to be full clothing, but is not - she shows a lot of skin behind all the wrapping. It must be useful in a fight : "take that, good-doer ! … Oh ! Unexpected view of skin ! Can't stop looking !" A good use of what I call the "battle skirt tactic", the weaponized application of the Theiss Titillation Theory.

This, and the WTF? effect of a girl in a bathsuit and mummy wraps stepping out of the shadows throwing sharpened stuff at you.

It manages to be not_sexy and sexy at the same time, serious and what the ?, dark and comical, classic and unexpected, confusing our expectations. All sexiness (and Maia looking exactly as my dream lady) aside, a really great costume design.

 

I don't think you can speak for everyone with this (why "we all" do anything). Yes, there are references to and elements of other comics in SotM, but that's not why I like it. I don't wish I was playing Batman, and my excitement about new characters has nothing to do with Marvel or DC.

As far as the sexualization goes, I can't really comment on Tactics since I haven't played it or actually had an in depth look at its art. SOTM hasn't really had a problem. I haven't felt like any of the new characters have been terrible. One thing I will mention as a little weird is female Spite, bue she's not really human, and maybe it's supposed to distrurb you to see Spite as a woman. Also, is it just me, or do Unity's boobs seem a lot bigger in the videogame than they do on her card?

I think you missed my point.  Its more the first half of that statement then the second half.  I won't deny putting some of my own feelings as to why I like the game, but it is something I've heard, and read, and discussed that has been repeated as to why people like SotM.  In someways playing SotM really is about creating a story of a super hero team versus the a super villain(s).  Wether you play as a part of the team or play as the whole team or however you play - you play the game for your reasons.  If the 2nd half of my quote had to do with anything, its the fact that Villains of the Multiverse gave us…well more (Vengeance Style) VIllains.  Some of the response was "Oh…well I don't like this format so I may pass…" or "I think I'll just wait till the replacement decks come out and but the environments that way."  The amount of people supporting Broken City is a little bit more then Shattered Timelines.  Maybe I just didn't finish my thought as to why people play it…but my concern wasn't so much why people play SotM it's more why hasn't Tactics caught as many of the SotM fanbase that is available?  Yes its a different game - which means a different audience, yet I'm really just trying to question why the numbers are low in comparisons.

 

The one thing that I feel…odd about is…why are these 11 villains teaming up?  When Vengence came out, Baron Blade pretty much said, to heck with this, if the Freedom Five can roll as a posse, why can't I?  So, to me, it makes sense to fight Baron Blade, Ermine, Friction, Fright Train, and Proletariet (especially against a Freedom Five Teamup!)   When I ask why is Bugbear teaming up with Miss Information, Biomancer, Plague Rat and La Capitan…other then a unique experience…it feels just odd. I'm not saying I'm not looking forward to it, I just wish I had an additional backstory as to why they are all working together. Other then revenge…as it seems Plague Rat seems to have handlers so it seems RevoCorp is really just "Testing" out Plague Rat and hunting for SetBack. Greazer is doing it just for the bounty prize of Captain Cosmic.

In some small way I wish Villains added some of these Villains as just singular enconters as well.  I mean something I feel a bit overlooked is the fact that most Super Villain Rogue Galleries outnumber the heroes that they face.  Although trying to design and keep each experience unique and fresh has got to be a bit of a nightmare - a challenge, but a nightmare none the less. There's one more Expansion (possibly…because you never know!) coming and some of these Villains I think would be awesome to fight solo.

 

As far as oversexualization goes, I'm surprised there was no input for the costumes for Expatriete and Pinion.  Miss Information is Bustier then when she first appeared and Mindphyre is just dressed skimpy…and people seem to be losing it.  They're the bad guys (girls?) and we now hate them for their sexuality…instead of hating them because they're evil? Glamour and Becky Blast were shown on the cover of For Profit and…there wasn't as this much animosity (in fact Glamour is bustier then Becky is!) This might be the "wrong" direction for the art, but as far as a track record goes - so far these have only been the only two offenders.  We also live in the Era of Photoshop…and if need be, yes I could see Adam making last minute changes.  It all seems kind of odd to me, So I'm curious how everyone feels about the other "ladies" and their outfits. 

 

Ok, Its time for bed. Sorry for Rambling.

I don’t think anybody is hating on characters, Adam, or the game. We also aren’t remarking that this is in any way a sudden change; we’re just concerned that the art has drifted over time from refreshingly different towards disappointingly generic and has reached a point where people feel moved to comment. Mindphyre was just the catalyst for this. We don’t want to end up seeing Hawkeye homages to any of Adam’s work.
As an aside, I really don’t understand why anyone thinks the typical objectified way women are portrayed in superhero and fantasy art is in any way healthy, normal, or acceptable. It’s crass, immature, and ultimately just terrible art.
I know Adam doesn’t post much but I’d really like to know what his thoughts are on how his style has matured and developed over the past few years, and what he thinks of the points raised here.

There's a big difference between "sexuality" and "sexualisation".
 
And I'm commenting on female characters in general, not just the villains.
 
I have no problem with the female body as long as it looks realistic and is appropriate for the role. And nudity or partial nudity or tight clothing is fine too - there's nothing shameful in the human form and I think as a society it's about time we got over this idea that female bodies especially are inherently sexual and therefore "dirty".
 
But again, I come back to this word "appropriate". Miss Information's new dress is pretty deliberately sexy on her part and probably not terribly functional - I assume there's a reason for that which will be made clear, and if she's not physically fighting then that's fair enough. I'd be complaining if she was wearing that (or the standard spandex) in her FV assistant role, because it's not work appropriate.
 
I hate Tactics Wraith wearing heels to run around fighting villains, for similar reasons. Not appropriate, because she's far more likely to injure herself and you simply can't run as fast in heels. Heels are primarily worn to make you look taller and/or sexier, and there's no need for Wraith to care about either of those things when she's trying to get a job done, especially with the added disadvantage of reduced mobility. Not appropriate.
 
And where on earth did Mind-Phyre get a costume that's obviously tailored especially for her, if Rook City's been practically destroyed and Exemplar has to wear a suit made of rags?
 
Props to Parse though. She looks comfortable and not restricted by her clothing. But it's interesting that the most "comfortable" character (apart from the Scholar) has Asperger's, presumably with the common symptom of sensitivity to touch meaning she wouldn't be able to cope with a tight costume, while the "normals" almost all wear them. She's wearing "normal" clothing because she's "not normal".
 
My second complaint is the cookie-cutter approach to bodies. The message to me is "This is the only type of body that is allowed to be a superhero, and this is the only type that is attractive." I'm sure Adam doesn't mean to send that message, but that's the message nonetheless. And it's the same "idealised" body shapes we're constantly being bombarded with from other media. As a woman I'm tired of those relentless pretty identical images that are held up to us not only as ideals, but as the only possible option.
 
I know this is very much atypical, but I know a woman who is about 5'6" and maybe 200lb. She's broad-shouldered and muscular, but she's clearly overweight and could stand to lose 40lb to reach a "normal" weight. I met her at the gym. She was leading an aerobics class I joined - I mean PROPERLY leading, as she did everything the class did and more. By the end of the hour she'd hardly broken a sweat (I was exhausted, it was a tough class), and she lead FIVE different aerobics classes every day. So big and fit? Totally possible. Slender and fit? Check out Olypic heptathletes or decathletes. Muscular and fit? Wrestlers, or hammer throwers, or sprinters.
 
Not just one " ideal" shape.

It's definitely not just you.

Under her sleeves.

If you want to look at the types of bodies it would take to run around all day and do the variety of tasks it would take to be "heroic" I agree with the heptathlete comment. You could also look at decathletes or just as good would be Crossfit competitors. 

However this is not only true for the "athletic" type heroes. Even if your powers are based on technology or magic you are still going to get into pretty good shape sprinting around the city. And try 3 minutes of hand to hand fighting/grappling. Do that on a regular basis and you will get into shape quick! Or you won't be a hero for very long...

It depends on what you mean by good shape. You will build up good stamina, but if eat a lot of sugar or drink a lot of alcohol you will still probably have a pot/beer belly.

That's quite a conflation.  No one in the thread has expressed hatred for any character's sexuality.  Aspects of design have been critiqued.

As for the appearance of other characters, I like how Becky looks.  Her boots have quite high heels, but she's a reckless character who loves to make situations dangerous on purpose, so that's actually appropriate.  And it's refreshing that she's not as busty as the other recently revealed female characters.

Yep. Again I'll reference my fat aerobics instructor, who was definitely overweight but able to do five hours of cardio classes a day plus some strength training. She was a big woman with fairly evenly-distributed body fat, but she was way fitter than most of the skinny women who took her classes.

10 years ago I was doing kung fu training three times a week with regular sparring, and going to the gym for 2 hours on two other days. The other two days I usually walked for 2 hours, and I worked behind a bar in a busy nightclub 12 hours a week (and if you don't think that's exercise you've never tried it). I weighted 210lb when I started, at 5'6", and I began eating sensibly as well. I've never been much of a drinker.

In a year I lost about 20lb. I was still fat. I still am.

Saying that though, there's no way I could look like a standard comic book female, even if I had no body fat. My shoulders and rib cage are too wide, my thighs are too muscular, I couldn't achieve the hourglass shape because my waist is also very muscular. A thin me would look square, and broader than Sky-Scraper pretty much everywhere except the upper arms (I'm too sick to do very much physically now, definitely no weights).

Most female comic book characters are narrower than it's possible for me to be, even if I was starving and had absorbed my own muscle to survive.

It's a good job I'm secure in my shape, that's all I can say.

I got your point. My objection is simply to your language/wording which assigns your own opinions to everyone.

Then you spoke for everyone again with "we hate them for…" etc.

Fine then "everyone*"

*Except MigrantP   :slightly_smiling_face:

My bad, it probably didin't help that I'm on day three of sleeping horrible and should have probably been in bed. Wording things at 3:30 something in the morning + lack of sleep = confusion of what I meant. 

[quote="Silverleaf"]

 And where on earth did Mind-Phyre get a costume that's obviously tailored especially for her, if Rook City's been practically destroyed and Exemplar has to wear a suit made of rags? 

 

[/quote]
To that same degree why did 4 out of five spites all seem to have form fitting custom costumes? Grudge appears to be wearing a robe? I get what your saying though…they should all be in rags, or even tatterted leftovers from looting broken city.

Not sure why this got split off.  Most of the discussion still majorly deals with the Preorder