AZ House Rule Experiment

Other Games SotM Game Engine
1

I decided to experiment with some house rules for Absolute Zero. This thread will track my efforts. My idea going in is that I like AZ but I feel his deck is far too reliant on getting the right synergies. Often if you’re missing a card, AZ is just down the tubes. I wanted to adress that and give Zero something to do when he didn’t have any stuff.

So currently, the house rule is Thermodynamics is replaced by:


Freeze: Absolute Zero deals 1 non-hero target 3 cold damage.

Why this power? Well the first question was; do I want a power that just deals damage, or should he have some sort of “effect” power? I decided on the damage power because I feel that compliments his deck the best. An effect power likely would not solve the issues of him getting stalled and not being able to do much without the right equipment. More or less the entire point was to make Zero useful right out of the gate, and not have to wait several turns to build up his equipment.

The only remaining question was how much damage it should do. I’m going to play a few games with 3, and see how it does. I’m not 100% on the 3 damage, but here is my reasoning behind it. Essentially the power either does 2 damage to be on par with Haka’s Crush and Ra’s Pyre, or it does 3 damage to be on par with Young Legacy’s Atomic Glare. I feel Ra’s inherent ability to easily buff himself with the Staff of Ra quickly turns Pyre into a 3 damage power, with a lot more ease than Zero can get out his Focused Aperatures. Haka’s Crush likewise is quickly upgraded to Tahia or Mere, but in order for Zero to upgrade his power he needs Thermal Shockwave and his modules. You may believe me when I tell you I thought long and hard about whether I wanted to give Zero a power equivalent with the most damaging base power in the game right now. But both Young Legacy and Zero have a +1 damage buffer (Focused Aperatures vs. Surge of Strength) to bump this power up to 4 damage, so no difference there. Legacy also has the benefit of the Legacy Ring, which Zero does not. So Zero can not use an additional power.

I’d also like to add that I’ve removed Zero’s ability to easily heal himself. He can still heal with many of his One-Shots and with Thermal Shockwave, but I think a damaging Zero is more dynamic and more interesting than one that sits there and tries not to die.

Without Further ado:

Game One:

(team selected randomly) Tach, Expatriette, Haka + Zero vs BB on Insula Primalis.

I selected BB because he is easy, but I was doing the version where you trash 2 cards instead of 1 for his advanced mode Terralunar beam. The heroes won this game handily in terms of HP, although I was right down to the wire when it came to the Impulsion beam. I’ll concentrate mainly on what happened with Zero, since the other heroes contributions aren’t particularly relevant.

I was quite glad to be playing with my house rule becuase Zero’s opening draw was Cold Snap, Hoarfire, Hoarfire, Coolant Blast. So… no modules and no way to get them either. He played Cold Snap and drew Focused Aperatures. A good draw but no modules. The next turn he played Focused Aperatures and drew Cold Snap. It wasnt until the next turn that he drew Null Point Calibration Unit. Though Cold Snap is quite good, he still would have been quite lackluster without the house rule since he was unable to get his modules. The game ended before he could draw Isothermic Trasducer or Thermal Shockwave. [I did use Coolant Blast once, after Zero was hit with the Burn part of a slash and Burn]. With the Freeze power belting out 4 damage on most turns, and the Cold Snap dealing another 2, he dealt his fair share of damage, probably more than his share.

Was this too powerful? I’m not sure. Considering bumping Freeze down to 2 damage, will try a few more games before I decide. It seemed good because of a very early Focused Aperatures, combined with an Obsidian field drawn midway through the game.

2

Game 2: Tachyon, Legacy, Expatriette & Zero vs Omnitron.

Well this was a first-turn Electropulse Explosive game. Man those are dreaded. No Synaptic Interruption, but I did have a Heroic Interception.

Zero’s opening draw: Cold Snap, Glacial Structure, Hoarfire, Thermal Shockwave.

So again, no modules and no way to get them. Glad I was playing an alternate Zero again. With not much else to do, Zero played Cold Snap and did a Freeze on the EPEX, coupled with a blast from a Tactical Shotgun, this changed the potential disaster of EPEX to a “mere” 8+3=11 points of damage to legacy alone. Of course with Advanced mode and the fact that Close Quarters Combat came up on the environment turn, he actually took 13. Ouch.

Stuff destruction was in full swing, the second turn we saw a Tech Singularity, and a few turns later it was Sedative Flechettes and then Sedative Flechettes again. Zero never was able to get a lot out in front of him but that sort of made his Freeze power really shine. It wasn’t until the second-to-last turn of the game that he managed to get out both of his modules. The last turn he finished off Omnitron with Hoarfire after Tachyon had gotten things off to a good start that round by dealing a mightly 36 damage.

My complaints aside, I could have played his modules slightly earlier (not much earlier) but I chose not to. Having a damaging base power gives Zero a lot more flexibility with his deck, allowing you to play some of his other cards without feeling like you MUST play his modules. 2 Rounds of not being able to play Hero cards stalled everyone, but the damage wasn’t quite as pronounced. I still had a useful power. I like that. Still concerned it might be too strong. Zero got a reasonably fast Focused Aperatures again, + Galvanize, he did pretty good for himself.

3

It is a good idea and I do see an Absolute Zero’s promo card probably being some type of damage. The thing I think will happen though is either it’ll be 2 cold damage instead of 3. Also If they did choose 3 I think it’d be most likely be fire damage. I kind of prefer the idea of it being either 2 or 3 fire damage best. Mainly since having Focused Aperatures in play will give cold a +1, thus you could hit yourself for 2/3 fire and thus deal out 3/4 cold instead. Now when buffs are applied it makes it that much better, lets say Legacy has Inspiring Presence in play and used Galvanize, along with Focused Aperatures in play. That with turn that 2/3 fire damage into 4/5 fire damage and then hit yourself thus dealing 7/8 cold damage to yourself. So that way you could easily deal a lot more and still effectively heal yourself if you decide to use that cold damage on yourself.

Just my opinion on the matter and what I am looking for in a promo card when it is ready.

4

interesting. I chose cold over fire because 1) seemed more thematic and 2) Ra’s Pyre already deals fire damage. I don’t feel zero should be better than or even as good as Ra when it comes to that. Granted there’s other powers and one-shots to consider… but still… I think it might be best not to have 2 heroes that deal fire damage with their base power… at least not yet.

As I mentioned in the original post, the rule that I made Zero can not target himself. If I did allow that as you suggest, I’d definitely reduce the damage. Right now though, I’m not particularly missing the self-targeting. If I want to do that, thats what Thermal Shockwave is for. Once you have the goods out, you can switch over to that power.

5

It does sound like 3 is very powerful. I agree that Cold makes thematic sense for a Power like this.

My thoughts on AZ, in general:
One of the things people forget when playing AZ is that he’s meant to be a build - he’s not necessarily supposed to have something to do every round. If we don’t get the cards he needs, the best strategy is to skip play and power to draw an extra card. (Thematically, he sits out for a while before being willing to join the fight.) Doing that significantly accellerates acquiring what he needs.

I don’t think I’ve had the problems with AZ I hear some folks here describe. I’ve had games where I didn’t get the cards in the opening deal, and I’ve had games where I didn’t get fully “set up” before the rest of the heroes finished the job, but I was always able to make AZ a participant in the fight. Actually, I’ve had far worse games with Bunker, Haka, and Mr. Fixer, but I chalk those up to bad luck. :-\

I think an alternate AZ is probably in our future, as it’s likely we’ll get alternates of most of the heroes, but I don’t think it will be something as straight-forward as this. :wink:

6

I like this idea a lot. I’ve seen a few posts in the BGG forums about “fixing” AZ, but most of them involve changing the number of cards in his deck or straight up changing how cards actually work. I think making the change just be his base power (which is easily done with an Alt. Character Card) is a very clever and easily implemented solution. I’m very curious to see more reports of how this works out.

This is the part I find most compelling. As Rabit said, I actually haven’t had that many problems with AZ myself. I tend to do rather well with him, but I do admit, the compulsion to play your modules first so you can be “useful” does kinda suck, and it insures that 2 round startup cost after equipment destruction. I really like the idea that you have a CHOICE whether to play your modules, and you can still be useful without them.

Rabit:
I agree that AZ is intended to be a more setup-oriented character, but this isn’t the first time we’ve seen a character’s “design” change based on their Alt. Character Card. Young Legacy plays very different that Papa Legacy, going from the ultimate team player to a solid damage dealer with team buffing capabilities. Similarly, Ra goes from being a pretty standard damage dealer to more of a “get my cool setup” character when you use his alt. Similarly, Fanatic changes from a pretty consistent damage dealer who LOVES dmg buffs to more of a tank/toolbox when you use her alt. To be clear, I’m not trying to discount or rebute what you said…the original AZ IS designed as a setup-type character. I just think that the alt. of a Character doesn’t necessarily have to support it’s original design (as illustrated above).

Ronway:
I’d be curious to see how this implementation (fire damage that could damage himself) would work as well. Though, without the ability to natively heal, you’d have to be a lot more careful how/when you damage yourself for the boost.

7

I have another idea myself on how to make Absolute Zero “better” to play by introducing a new concept. Actually have a similar idea for Tachyon as well. And, it would be just as simple as having a promo character card. I want to try it out first though.

8

Whenever somebody brings up problems with Absolute Zero, somebody else brings this up. I don’t find it a reasonable defense. You don’t have the right cards, so you can’t do anything. The solution is… to not do anything?

Drawing two cards by skipping your turn is a nice tactical option that almost every hero has a reason to use from time to time. If you have to use it every game just to get the cards you need to function on the most basic level, that delays your contributions to the team. I’m not saying it’s not the right play, I’m just saying that it doesn’t really solve the issue the person is having - namely, Zero isn’t doing anything. It might get the stuff, but Zero still isn’t contributing that round.

I am watching the results of this experiment with interest, though I agree that if we get a Zero promo card, it sadly won’t be so straightforward. That’s just not how he’s wired.

9

Game 3: Tachyon, Young Legacy, Bunker, and Zero vs Voss on the Industrial Complex.

This game Tachyon and Bunker were selected randomly, I picked Young Legacy to accompany Zero because I wanted to compare Freeze with Atomic Glare side-by-side.

Zero’s opening Draw: Cryo Chamber, Coolant Blast, Glacial Structure, Cold Snap.

So for the third game in a row, I had Cold Snap in my opening hand, and for the third game in a row, I didn’t have a module, or Onboard Module Installation. This makes me very happy about the House Rule “promo” card, because I think of how sad I would be if I was playing Zero normally. As it stood, once again I just played Cold Snap and went about my buisiness. Not getting modules was Zero’s thing this game, I took a calculated risk and dropped down Cryo chamber anyway on the second turn because a Chemical Explosion had killed off all of Voss’ initial minions and as it happened, Zero was the lowest so he was getting hit for fire damage by Voss’ flip side attack. After a long time he did draw an OMI, and I used it to pick up Null Point Callibration Unit. The game ended in a narrow hero victory after around 8-10 turns. Zero did not draw Isothermic Transducer or another OMI, so he was without Isothermic the entire game. I checked the top of his hero deck, and the closest Isothermic or OMI was an Isothermic 3 cards down. And Tachyon had played all of her Fleet of Foot cards too.

This was the first game where 3 damage definitely seemed just right. Maybe it was the fact that Voss’ Advanced mode reduces hero damage, or maybe it was Legacy going before him that made it seem just fine, but a 3 damage Freeze was only dealing 1 damage for several turns due to Gene-bound guards and damage reduction. He also did not draw Focused Aperatures until very late in the game. Not a whole lot more to say about this game other than to point out that Zero often excells against Voss because Voss doesn’t kill your stuff. Despite this, and despite card-draw help from Tachyon, I was still unable to get out Zero’s “good” setup. He ended the game with Cold Snap, Cryo Chamber, Null Point, Focused Aperatures, and Thermal Shockwave in play. Still 1 Isothermic Transducer short of what he needed. Although It may not have mattered. By the end of the game Zero was at 1 hp. And you can’t make very good use of Thermal Shockwave unless you have at least some HP to burn (see what I did there?) . All in all I was very pleased with Zero’s preformance this game he seemed balanced, useful, but he certainly did not outshine any member of the team. [Yes, even Bunker did quite well. He dominated minions with External Combustion and got a basic but effective Turret Mode/Grenade Launcher/Flak Cannon combo near the end o fthe game.]

On a general note, I don’t agree that Zero can’t have a straightforward promo card because “thats not how zero works”. If/when >g comes out with a Zero promo, I hope it is very straightforward, as it might turn on some players to Zero who would otherwise be quite wary of his fiddly mechanics. Those who like the fiddly mechanics can play the original card. Personally I’m loving being able to leave a lot of the tiresome mental math behind.

10

I also hope for a straightforward promo card. I agree that his power doesn’t have to be nonintuitive, it just doesn’t seem likely to me. Nevertheless, this is a jumping-off point for another discussion I’ve been meaning to have. How do other people actually use Thermodynamics?

Thermodynamics doesn’t actually contribute to the tiresome mental math. That’s all Hoarfire and Thermal Shockwave. I will almost always use it to simply regain life with the NPCU, and almost never use it to deal fire damage. If I’ve reached self-destruct mode without Thermal Shockwave, then it’s a decent power use if there are buffs. Otherwise, it’s deal one to self, output two with Focused Apertures. Which means you’re not doing much.

11

mm… yes, you’re right, Thermodynamics isnt directly to blame for tiresome mental math.

It’s only indirectly to blame.

The lack of a strong base power almost forces you to use Thermal Shockwave as your primary attack. With a strong base power, he can sort of take-it-or-leave-it.

But as for the power itself, yes, practically always to heal up and never to deal fire damage. Without help from other heroes, using Thermodynamics to deal fire damage in a best-case scenario you would have Focused Aperatures and Isothermic out. You would end up taking 1 damage in order to deal 2 damage. This does not seem like a good trade to me either. If you have Cryo Chamber you can take 0 damage to deal 1 damage. Not a huge improvement. I agree this is often a bit dull for a power phase. Healing yourself for 3 hp (cryo chamber, focused aperatures) isn’t a lot more exciting either.

12

Just to be a bit nitpicky, but Cryo Chamber actually makes it worse. You deal yourself 1 fire damage. Cryo Chamber then reduces it to 0 fire damage. 0 damage is the same as no damage (as pointed out by Chris almost a year ago). No fire damage means Isothermic Transducer does not kick off at all. Thus, you can take 0 damage, but don’t get a chance to deal any damage at all.

13

Well, if you have Cryo Chamber and are ready to self-destruct, just use that. :slight_smile:

14

Game 4:

Expatriette, Haka, Zero, Ra vs Citizen Dawn on mars, baby!

Random team again, I swear, even though it seems like I’m using the same heroes all the time.

Starting Draw for Zero: OMI, Isothermic Trandsucer, Focused Aperatures, Coolant Blast.

Hurray, easy modules! With a turn 1 Devestating Aroura that did nothing I was feeling good about this game. I actually elected to play Focused Aperatures first though because I wanted the extra damage. Of course when turn 2 swung around I had just gotten that and my Null Point out when the first Red Dust hit. So much for that plan. We took a pounding all game from Return with the Dawn and the first citizens being all the ones that did area damage. Assault, Hammer, or Winter was back every single turn hounding us. Zero finally got Fueled Freeze for some good old fashioned ongoing destruction and then a Blinding Blast made him discard it. Hero victory in 9 turns, everyone was less than 10 hp. Zero was at 2. A second Red Dust midway through the game stalled Zero some more. Was once again glad to have a damaging base power… this was expected.

3 damage seemed more than reasonable again. No focused Aperatures for most of the game, so the 3 damage was 3 damage. Didn’t get Cold Snap this game, it was kinda sad. Quite pleased with Zero’s preformance again, he was solidly middle-of-the-pack.

15

On the topic about Absolute Zero not doing fire damage doesn’t really fit in his “theme”, sorry for the late reply to it, but since he is using a mechanical suit I am pretty sure it will be easily something that could be in a new suit he acquires later on. Though I can’t counter the comment about two heroes being able to do fire for innate. Though 3 cold damage still is a bit much, even if Young Legacy can do it, but that is purely for the fact to make up for a missing Galvanize who in a 4 hero game would be increasing that much damage in the first place. Maybe if Cold Snap wasn’t in his deck than it wouldn’t be so bad, but that right there is already an extra 1 point of damage.

Though it would be nice if Absolute Zero did have a straight foward attack, I am also interested in what kind of crazy power the Greater Than Games folks could come up for him.

16

I really think just giving him a power that does straight damage doesn’t synergize with him at all. I mean, you had to give him a 3 damage attack (which is rare) so that he could pull his weight. I really hope that they do something more in-tune with his flavor, like maybe .

17

not entirely sure what you mean, dragonlordged.

Respectfully, I disagree that a 3 damage power doesn’t synergize with AZ. I think it synergizes rather well, if you ask me. If you mean: “A power like that doesn’t let AZ make use of his Null Point or Isothermic Transducer” well, yes… that was the entire point… so that he wouldn’t need those cards in order to be good. I’m approaching it from the standpoint of “what would work well with his deck?” And trust me, a 3 damage base power works very well.

I didn’t necessarily have to give him a 3 damage power so that he could pull his weight… I just did it because it seemed reasonable at the time given what other heroes could do. It’s rare to do 3 damage, I agree, but it also has precedent. With that said, I’ve had 2 games where I thought it was a little on the strong side, and 2 games when I thought it was good. This probably means it is a little on the strong side to give him 3 damage. I think I’m going to try it with only 2 damage shortly., though I may do another test game with 3 damage first.

I encourage people to try this though and post what they think after a play or two. Let me know if you used 3 damage or 2, whether you thought it was OP or not, and whether you thought it worked well with the rest of his deck. I’m fairly confident that most people who try the house rule will like it.

18

I’ve thought this over a bit, and I’m not sure I like it.

I mean, it’s just kind of completely contradictory to his flavor as a hero. Yes, it helps him deal out more damage and not rely on his cards, but really you could do the same thing to Wraith or Tachyon or whoever. It doesn’t mean it’s a good idea. His entire theme is that he is in the thick of it, taking lots of damage and dishing it out in return. I think the best way to help him is not to make him non-reliant on his cards, but make it easier to protect his cards. Maybe his power could be “search your trash for a module and put it into your hand. AZ deals himself 1 fire damage” or something like that. Just giving him a cold blast attack – and especially one that strong – seems like you’re just shortcutting past all the things that make him AZ.

19

Honestly, I’m just curious to see what would happen if Abs could deal his 1 Cold or 1 Fire damage to any target rather than just himself.

20

A few things to note here, I played game5 and will summarize in a moment. I reduced the damage on the power to 2. So I am now playing:

Freeze: Absolute Zero deals 1 non-hero target 2 cold damage.

Complaints on his power being unthematic noted. Personally I disagree, but I hope you reconsider due to the reduction of damage. 3 damage from his base power is quite strong all game, I’m hoping that by reducing it to 2 damage Freeze will be a nice power that you can use and fall back on, but you’ll still want to get Thermal Shockwave out and use that instead if you can, rather than relying on Freeze for the entire game.

Remember, I’m not changing his deck, I’m changing his base power. Anything you can do with Zero before you can still do. Thermal Shockwave is totally and completely unchanged. Taking a bunch of damage and dishing it out in return still applies as much as it ever did. Your Thermal Shockwave is exactly the same whether you have Freeze or Thermodynamics as your base power. Thermodynamics doesn’t make Zero into Zero either.

Incidentally, I could do the same to Wraith or Tachyon, but Wraith and Tachyon don’t need help =p. If they had a problem, I very well might.

Game 5: Tempest, Fanatic, Expatriette, Zero vs Spite on Atlantis

Not a whole lot to report, a pretty crushing defeat for the heroes. We were unable to save victims, and were more or less locked down by Spite’s armor. Despite drawing cards all game, was unable to get Divine Focus or Wrathful Retribution for Fanatic, which could have helped penetrate armor. Tempest did very well, but Fanatic, Expatriette, and Zero were all locked down. As for Zero, he had a more “traditional” setup of Focused Aperatures, Isothermic, Null Point, and Thermal Shockwave. Despite this, he was unable to deal spite any significant damage. Spites Armor was too high, and Zero’s HP was too low by the time he flipped in order to take advantage of Thermal Shockwave. Did not draw Cold Snap or Imaple, either of those would have helped a lot. Freeze power was similarly unable to get through Spite’s armor. First loss, viewing this as a good thing, Yes, zero was utterly locked down… but he was utterly locked down with everyone else. Losing is always a shame, but an encouraging game from a balance perspective. Only sad part is I simply was unable to use the 2 damage Freeze much because there would have been no point.