Bloody Knuckles combo

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1

I cast *Open can of worms!*

 

So Bloody Knuckles increases both Mr Fixer's damage and damage to Mr Fixer, so what happens if Mr Fixer targets himself with an attack? I think we can all agree that the damage is increased by both effects.

What happens when he has a weapon out, specifically Dual Crowbars or Jack Handle?

It has already been ruled that with Dual Crowbars you calculate the damage to the first target and then do the same amount of damage to the second target, you do not recalculate the damage even if the modifiers change.

But what about Jack Handle? We already know that with an Infection card on Mr Fixer he does not damage himself, instead he damages all non-hero targets, but we don't know if it would be increased or decreased to those targets by 'outside' factors.

 

Is this what was missing before, that Mr Fixer can completley crush people by attempting to damage himself?

 

(I should admit that I was not observant enough to spot this combo, Ronway pointed it out to me in one of our online games, come join us for more insights into strategy!)

2

I think we do know that Mr. Fixer's use of Jack Handle would be increased or decreased … by 'outside' factors. It's Dual Crowbars that needed a ruling. I think Jack Handle is straightforward and played the same way that any other redirection is played. The source of the attack is the same. The destination of the attack has changed, so the relevant modifications to the type and/or amount of the attack may change.

3

I'm pretty confident that the second target of Dual Crowbars would only get the boost from being damage from Mr Fixer, and not the second boost from being damage to Mr Fixer (since it isn't actually to Mr Fixer).  Although the comment you linked to seems to imply that you don't recalculate modifiers, if you read down two posts the intent is that you don't double apply a single modifier.

Both Dual Crowbars and Jack Handle are troublesome because they both cause and trigger off of Mr Fixer dealing damage.  I've always enterpreted them to mean that Dual Crowbars adds one more target to all his damage and Jack Handle replaces the targets with all non-hero targets.  The real can of worms is when we find a way to give him a power which damages multiple targets or have multiple effects like Jack Handle/Dual Crowbars out at once.

4

Interesting.  These cases aren't redirection, per se.  I can see applying the concept, but Mr. Fixer has plenty of strange corner cases, what's one more? 

If this works, let's see some numbers.  Dual Crowbars, Grease Monkey Fist, Harmony, Bloody Knuckles. 

Attack something else? 6 damage to 2 things.  Attack self? 8 to self, 8 to something else.

Not a good deal, but might be situationally useful.  Different styles could have applications, of course.  (Except Driving Mantis.)

Jack Handle, Grease Monkey Fist, Harmony, Bloody Knuckles.

Attack self.  Would deal 7, but instead deal seven to all nonhero targets.  That's... quite good. 

If that works.  Does it?  The essential combo would be Jack Handle/Bloody Knuckles, which by itself would be capable of dealing 5 damage to everything.  It would only be for 1 turn, and does make Mr. Fixer a featherweight in the health department.  Even so, is this something we can do?

5

I disagree that the crowbar thread established that you do not recalculate the damage modifiers. Specifically, if I hit Apostate for 2 damage (one from the base and one from the crowbar boost) and then choose Runes of Maldiction as my second target how much damage would the Runes take?

I believe the answer is 0 (one from the base, one from the crowbar boost, and -2 from the Runes effect). The way I understand the Crowbars it just lets him hit 2 targets instead of one. I would say if Fixer has Dual Crowbars and Bloody Knuckles he could hit himself for 6, but would only deal 4 to another target.

6

For the first example I'd agree with you, for the second iirc what Dual Crowbars says is after you damage 1 target do that much damage to another, so you'd get the 6 on yourself and then another 6 to put somewhere else.

7

Initially, it was stated that whatever the final damage to the first target was, the second target would take the same damage, disreguarding any increases or decreases or immunity to damage.  Thus, if the first target took 5 damage from the attack, the second would take exactly 5, nor more and no less (even if it was immune or had damage reduction of say 3 or so).  However, that seems to do wierd things in certain situations, and is far from consistent with other mechanics.  Rather, I say it's easier, and possibly more correct, to simply say that, whenever Mr. Fixer deals damage to a target, deal the same amount of original damage as was to be dealt to the first target to a second target.  Thus, if using the Strike power to deal one damage to a target, even if it is increased to 6 damage, deal only deal one damage to the second, which may only get increased to 5 damage.  That's the way I've started to play it as it makes more sense and is more consistant.

8

There is a difference between deal all non-hero targets x type damage, to if you would deal damage to a target, deal that much to all non-hero targets.

 

The would means a all new damage is being created from the first target. In the case of Jack Handle the initial damage is not actually taken, but the initial choice it still what effects the outcome. So he selects a target, say a minion and will be deals that target 1 damage. Since he has Jack handle in play that initial attack doesn't actually deal anything. Instead you'll deal it to all non-hero targets. It's already known how game breaking Jack Handle is in the game when going back to the Plague Rat incident. Jack Handle is a very complex card and very confusing to read when you begin to start to read it and trying to understand it. Infact lets deal damage to a target with reduced damage.

 

Say Fixer has some kind of boost, either being from Grease Monker Fist or a Galvanize, either way he it's a +1. He deals damage to a target with reduction, lets say some citizen with Anvil in play. He would deal that target 1 damage, so instead that attack is erased other than the damage and it deals all non-heroes that damage instead. Since it is actually a new attack, that would mean all reduction is once again applied thus deals 0 damage to all targets. Maybe the intention is that Jack Handle is "static" and will remain unchanged? Thus instead would deal all targets that 1 damage it would of initially done, makes sense. Apply that logic going up against Voss however. He has a Gene-Bound Guard in play, gving -1 to the guard and -3 to Voss. That would mean that targeting the guard for 2 damage, reduced by 1 to 1, meaning he would isntead hit all non-hero targets for 1 damage. Meaning Voss would still get hit for that 1 point.

 

Now is that how it is supposed to be played, not likely. The wording does infact leave both those options available. Considering Increased are only meant to be applied once, wouldn't that mean decreases are the same way? At the same time that would allow him to break through even more reduction even without the Altering Tiger Claw in play.

 

Back to the Bloody Knuckles though, infact targeting Tempest with Localized Hurricane in play would yield fairly similar results. That 5 damage is what he would of dealt and he deals that much damage to all non-hero targets, so why wouldn't that be the damage he deals to them then?

 

Now do I target him when he has both in play, no. In fact I tend to play it just like everyone else seems to do when Tempest uses Squall. Though it would be nice to get an official ruling about how it's supposed to be played rather than how it is read.

 

Now for the Dual Crowbars. The ruling states that if you deal 4 damage to the Operative you can target 1 other target for that 4 damage. Thus increases in your damage are not effected between targets. So targeting yourself will deal you 6 damage with Bloody Knuckles in play, the 2 points for targeting yourself are considered increases at this point. So that will be 6 damage to one other target. Now the complications truly come about is when reduction is invovled. Which is similar to the Jack Handle situation. Is the second damage you deal considered "static" or can it still be reduced. Infact if that damage can still be reduced if you targets Anvil for 2 points of damage with Dual Crowbars in play making it only deal 1 damage, wouldn't that mean you can't target another Citizen? At the same time if it is "static" wouldn't that mean you can hit the near by Raptors for 2 and then deal 2 to Anvil?

 

Basically I think the main question is how is reduction handled inbetween each target for both the Crowbars and the Jack Handle?

 

Edit: Well considering the Jaymann just pointed out that somewhere in the ruling it does ignore Reduction and other Increases answers that one, infact that makes Riveting Crane a lot more useful. Though by passing Immunity is something I don't see happening.

9

The two examples are the same.

In the first, you have just Crowbars. You hit Apostate for 2. Then the Runes take 0 since Relics take 2 less.

In the second you have Crowbars and Knuckles. You hit yourself for 6 and then deal another target like Dawn 4. Dawn doesn't take the 2 from knuckles that only applies when Mixer is the target.

There is no difference. In one the Runes take 2 less damage. In the other Fixer takes 2 more. Those are target modifiers. They apply only when that target is getting hit. They don't apply to the other target. 

What I think is getting confused here are source modifiers (damage dealt) and target modifiers (damage taken). Source modifiers like Harmony do apply to all targets hit.

10

The thing about Dual Crowbars is that is deals the second target the same amount of damage as the first target. It's already been comfirmed that striking Operative first will allow you to hit any target and the nemesis bonus will still infact apply to that target as well. Therefore why would striking yourself not allow for that extra 2 points of damage? That's how much the first target was hit for?

11

I really understand the argument that the same damage is delt and you don't take into account any types of immunities or buffs/debuffs on the second attack.  I'm even willing to to say I can understand it being the intended ruling.  However I really dislike that ruling, it leads to all kinds of trouble with potential mechanics like damage immunity.  I guess Fixer can kill Dawn on her flipped side if this is the way it is supposed to work.  I will admit it creates a very clever use for crow bars and jack handle and more use for bloody knuckles however.  Hmm, maybe I dislike it less than I initially thought, He wouldn't be the first hero to effectively spend hit points to do damage.  I am eager to see what the concensus is but I think I might house rule it either way.

12

I think we need to know what "same amount" means. It either means initial damage amount or final damage amount. If it is initial damage amount (his innate 1 damage) then all the increases and decreases and immunities apply like normal to the second damage instance. If it is final damage amount then I agree that he can hit himself for 6 and then hit another target for 6, the second 6 being unmodifiable since it is final. I think it is supposed to be initial damage is the same for the two hits. That makes the most sense thematically.

13

It looks to be the final damage as he would get a nemesis bonus towards The Operative, so if he hit her for 4 in the example given and then can hit any other target for 4 damage, that would mean that would be final damage since nemesis bonus was part of that 4. I don't see him punching through any immunities though. And doubt that was actually part of any ruling since that would be way too powerful.

14

I'm going to put in a question to the designers: When Dual Crowbars is used, does it result in simply applying damage to a second target or in initiating a second attack? If damage is simply applied, does it ignore destination-specific reduction and immunity? If a second attack is initiated, is the starting amount the same as Fixer's initial attack or the same as the resulting amount?

15

Jack handle is along the same lines, I think most people were focused on the Crowbards though. Target yourself with the Jack Handle with Bloody Knuckles is results in that extra damage, or at leas tthe reading implies it.

16

I play jack handle as changing target to "all non-hero" when it's used and crowbars to just be a second attack with any "next attack" buffs still in place.

Of course I could be wrong.

As a question, how do other people deal with Bloody Knuckles if Fixer hits himself while it's out? Does it boost the damage by 4 or only 2, i.e. does both the damage to and damage by buffs stack or only one? Obviously this applies to [REDACTYED] with [REDACTED] out even moreso.

17

I consider "damage dealt to" and "damage dealt by" as two different steps in the process of dealing damage (cf the other thread), so, first he deals damage with a +2, and then is dealt this amount of damage +2, so yes, he takes +4 in total.

But, if he is using the dual crowbars, he only deals to the other target a +2 from bloody knuckles. But this (considering damage "dealt by " and damage "dealt to" as two different values) is a houserule - one I chose to take care of all these problems with damage once and for all, and by no way the official way of doing it.

18

I would definately say that Bloody Knuckles results in +4 damage when Mr Fixer damages himself.  They are two separate bonuses, and there is no reason that they won't both apply.

If, for example, the card said "Increase damage dealt to and by Mr Fixer by 2." then it seems like it would be just one bonus and he would only deal +2 damage when hitting himself.

19

I had posted the following in the pending questions section

>

This is really an initial question and one of two follow-up questions depending on the answer to the initial question.

Initial Question: When Dual Crowbars is used, does it result in (A) Simply applying damage to a second target or in (B) Initiating a second attack?

If (A - Simply apply damage to second target), then would that damage be reduced/increased by cards affecting the destination/target and/or possibly completely stopped by immunity?

If (B - Initiating a second attack), then would the initial amount of the attack be the same as Fixer's initial amount for the original attack or the same as Fixer's _RESULTING_ amount for the initial attack?

 

Examples ... which one of these five scenarios is correct?

A1 - Simply apply and destination effects/immunity in effect

Fixer has Bloody Knuckles in play and strikes the Deputy doing 3 points of damage. Using Dual Crowbars Fixer chooses The Chairman, but the Chairman has not yet flipped so is immune to damage and takes 0.

 

A2a - Simply apply and _NO_ destination effects/immunity in effect

Fixer has Bloody Knuckles in play and strikes the Deputy doing 3 points of damage. Using Dual Crowbars Fixer chooses The Chairman. The Chairman has not yet flipped, so is nominally immune to damage, but takes 3 points of damage anyway.

 

A2b - Simply apply and _NO_ destination effects in effect but immunity is still in effect

Fixer has Bloody Knuckles in play and strikes the Deputy doing 3 points of damage. Using Dual Crowbars Fixer chooses The Chairman. The Chairman _has_ flipped, so is not immune to damage, but destination effects are _NOT_ in effect, so  the nemesis bonus is not used and The Chairman only takes 3 points of damage, not 4.

 

B1 - New attack, same amount as initial original attack.

Fixer has Bloody Knuckles in play and strikes the Deputy doing 3 points of damage. Using Dual Crowbars Fixer chooses The Chairman. The Chairman _has_ flipped, so is not immune to damage. Fixer does an attack of 1 point of damage which is increased by Bloody Knuckles and the Nemesis bonus to 4, so The Chairman takes 4 points of damage.

 

B2 - New attack, same amount as _RESULTING AMOUNT_ of original attack

Fixer has Bloody Knuckles in play and strikes the Deputy doing 3 points of damage. Using Dual Crowbars Fixer chooses The Chairman. The Chairman _has_ flipped, so is not immune to damage. Fixer does an attack of 3 points of damage which is increased by Bloody Knuckles and the Nemesis bonus to 6, so The Chairman takes 6 points of damage.

 

Summary: Is the damage to The Chairman 0, 3, 4, or 6. And, if it is 3, does The Chairman's immunity matter?

 

 

From the KantCon rulings (https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/answers-to-debated-questions-3871)

>

2. Is the second damage from Dual Crowbars modifiable?

Kind of. The damage isn't supposed to be increased however damage reduction would apply separately to each target. There will be look into future printings to clear that up.

This looks like scenario A1 to me. Is that right? Despite the answer including "damage isn't supposed to be increased", wouldn't affects like the nemesis bonus and anything that caused a target to take extra damage (like a bounty) still have an effect? 

 

20

The clarification still leaves some doubts. What if the second damage goes to a hero target and "increase dmg dealt to hero targets by 1" is in effect? I know it's an unrealistic example but still a possibility.