Bunker's Modes Need Reworking

Other Games SotM Game Engine
1

I've been playing SotM regulary for awhile now. Played every hero at least half a dozen times and many of them way, way more than that. Beaten almost every villain on advanced. And I have found a place for every hero in the game; except Bunker. I simply cannot think of a villain or situation where I would actually want to have Bunker on my team when compared to another Hero (Excluding the obvious Ammo Drop/Savage Mana combo. I've simply found Haka of Battle to be a better damage sink 95% of the time over Savage Mana).

I cannont understand what GtG was thinking when they made Bunker's modes so restrictive. He is the ONLY character in the game that can completely shut himself off from playing or drawing cards and freeze his hand/play area (Visionary and NightMist have similar cards but they are given IMMUNITY to damage with them out). I like the idea off specializing to get your setup, or specializing to draw the cards you need, but Recharge Mode and Upgrade mode are almost completely useless because of the heavy restrictions and lackluster bonuses they give. Bunker would be better off just having all of his Upgrade/Recharge Mode cards removed from his deck entirely so he can draw something good instead. Turret Mode is better but still in my opinion far more restrictive than it has any reason to be.

Recharge Mode nets you an extra card draw per turn and a -1 damage reduction, but with your base power you can already draw +1 cards. This means you don't actually net any extra cards until you have come around again and are skipping a second, third, fourth, etc. turn entirely to draw more cards. This makes recharge mode completely awful for card drawing. Auxiliary Power Source is a superior choice in every way for getting more cards, you play it and use the power (essentially skipping your turn for card draw) and net +2 more than you normally would. This makes a one turn skip using Auxiliary Power Source as effective as 3 dead turns in Recharge mode, giving you two extra turns to play cards. Having initialize as a basic power means really the only situation that you would ever want to bother playing recharge mode in is when you have ABSOLUTELY nothing that could even be slightly beneficial to play in your hand (Say 3 Decommisioned Hardwares and a Recharge Mode). Recharge Mode is definetly the worst of the modes and is almost useless.

TL;DR: Recharge Mode is near pointless to play and is only worth bothering with when you have a hand so bad that you cannot play ANYTHING and have no powers in play to use.

Upgrade Mode is only mildy better than Recharge Mode. Not being able to use powers either means A) You cripple your draw while upgrading or B) You cannot do damage while upgrading. But Upgrade Mode let's you get stuff out faster than just playing them one at a time, right? So you should be doing more damage overall, right? Well, no not really all that much. To even think about using upgrade mode you have to have 2 or 3 cards (Which essentially has to include both Flak Cannon and Grenade Launcher at the very least) + Turret Mode in hand to play. Without Turret Mode you waste the extra play on the turn you remove Upgrade Mode on.

Say I have a perfect hand: Upgrade Mode, Turret Mode, Flak Cannon, Gatling/Omni, Grenade Launcher, and Ammo Drop. Let's try playing them with and without Upgrade Mode:

  1. Playing them one at a time would take 5 turns assuming you aren't going to use Upgrade mode and Turret Mode, because it prevents you from playing cards and removes Upgrade Mode, must go down last. Here you would want to start with either Flak or Grenade to start the damage going and then place Gatling, Ammo, the other weapon and finally Turret Mode. During these 5 turns you would get to use 6 powers; 4 unbuffed by Turred Mode and 2 with the +1 damage buff and you would start gaining cards from Ammo Drop on either the 2nd or 3rd turn.
  2. Let's compare this strategy with using Upgrade Mode to place them. Your 1st turn would be used playing upgrade mode and then Gatling, 2nd would be the Ammo Drop and a weapon, and 3rd would be the final weapon and then Turrent Mode to replace Upgrade Mode. So you got setup fully in 3 turns instead of 5, but you had two essentially dead turns. Adding all the powers you get to use in the first 5 turns using Upgrade Mode and comparing them to what you get without using Upgrade Mode gives you 6 power uses (The same number as when not using Upgrade Mode to place) BUT all of them are buffed with the +1 damage from Turret Mode and you would start gaining cards from your Ammo Drop on your 1st or 2nd turn.

So the benefit of using Upgrade Mode is you gain a slight boost in damage from all of your power uses being boosted instead of only the ones on the tail end of your placement. You also may gain a few extra turns of Gatling/Ammo Drop bonuses. These boons are in exchange for having a few turns where you do not contribute. So Upgrade Mode is only slightly beneficial and ONLY if you have at least both of your weapons and Turret Mode in your hand ready to play. That's kind of sad.

TL;DR: Recharge Mode is a moderate bonus to your damage if you are incredibly lucky and draw the perfect 5 or 6 cards you need to make use of it and if you don't it's not worth bothering with.

*Edit*: Forgot to add that Recharge Mode would be useful in a situation where Bunker is unable to do damage during his turn, but this is still relatively situational and only applicable with a few select environments/villains.

Turret Mode is the mode that will get the most use, but that's not saying much. It's only really useful when you have both weapons out so you can make full use of the +1 damage. With both Flak Cannon and Grenade Launcher out in Turret Mode you do 4, 3, 3, 2 damage. Compare this to Wraith's Micro Targeting Computer, Utility Belt, Razor Ordinance, Throwing Knives combo which is faster and easier to setup because of Impromptu Invetion and STILL does more damage than Bunker's with 5, 3, 3, 3 while Wraith retains the ability to play/draw cards (She also reatains the ability to play, and switch to using, a support power at will  which easily keeps her more flexible).

So we can safely establish that a basic Flak Cannon/Grenade Launcher/Turret Mode setup is rather awful with other heroes being able to easily out-damage it while retaining their flexibility and support/control possibilities. Even with a Gatling Gun out and being fed by Ammo Drop he would only out-damage Wraith's easy to get going damage setup by 1 damage (althoug Bunker would be able to focus it slightly more onto a single target). Omni-Cannon is really only feasible to feed with Ammo Drop out, and even then the flexibility of Haka's Savage Mana/Haka of Battle is superior honestly. It's also much easier to get Haka's Dominion out to get the cards necessary to fuel him because of massive numbers of card drawing one-shots (Which Bunker lacks entirely).

TL;DR: Turret Mode gives Bunker a nice damage boost but he still tends to lag behind damage-wise compared to other heroes AND it locks him down completely from drawing/playing cards so he has no chance to expand his setup once Turret Mode goes down.

How to fix the modes: I feel like there are two ways that would be the easiest fix Bunker's modes. Either: 1) Improve the bonuses they give so that they are useful or 2) Remove the downsides of the modes completely.

  1. This would require testing to balanec it, but as starting suggestions make Recharge Mode allow Bunker to draw 2 extra cards instead of 1 and have -2 damage reduction instead of only -1. In Upgrade Mode allow Bunker to place 2 extra cards instead of 1 which would allow him to get setup faster (This is the mode that I would be most willing to leave the same of them all). And in Turret Mode increase Bunker's damage by +3 instead of +1.
  2. Simply remove all of the restrictions on playing/drawing/using powers in every mode and otherwise leave them as is. I feel that being able to only have one out at a time is restriction enough on them and this would encourage people to actually use his modes instead of, well, not using them....

Am I alone in thinking that Bunker needs some serious fixing to his modes to be on par with similar heroes? Or am I glaringly missing something awesome about him? Because his damage seems to horribly lag behind other hybrid heroes that have awesome utility even when fully setup while he remains almost a purely damage focused hero that has lackluster damage and poor setup time/ease compared to them.

2

There is a fantastic, if long, guide to bunker on these forums somewhere. I'd strongly recommend finding it and reading it. I'm sure Pydro has a link handy haha. 

Recharge mode nets you three cards a turn. 2 for skipping play/power and 1 from the mode. Couldn't tell if you knew that or not. 

Also I'd caution directly comparing hero powers/damage. They are not balanced against each other. Each hero is, and must be, balanced within itself. I know why you want to look at Throwing Knives and Grenade launcher, but they are different cards that exist within totally different contexts (or the deck they are found in). If you try and play bunker like wraith, I can see why you'd see the modes as lacking. Likewise, wraith should never be played like bunker either. 

Check out that guide I mentioned. It's a heavy look into how to play Bunker effectively. I know it changed how I look at his cards. 

3

The Flak Cannon, Grenade Launcher and Turret Mode combination actually requires one less card to use than Wraith's setup because turret mode both increases damage and lets you use an extra power. Bunker's simple setup is actually easier to get and use with the advantage of a global change in damage type not effecting his damage buff. Recharge Mode I'm just fine with for the reasons that Foote stated. If you combine it with Heavy Plating, you can get a damage reduction of 2 and draw three cards. It does exactly what it's supposed to. The only character who can beat that is Nightmist with her Mist Form. Upgrade Mode I agree would be nice with a little less restrictions. Unless you have a lot of cards in your hand that you want to play at once, it's usually better just to do small bits of damage and build up gradually.

The thing with Wraith is that she has Impromptu Invention which more or less allows to get out two equipment cards on her turn, one from your deck and if you have one in your hand then you can pay it as well. She also has more draw capability than Bunker. Grappling Hook and Infrared allow her to draw a free card and Trust Fund allows her to dig more through her deck while getting rid of redundant or momentarily useless cards. The problem isn't Turret Mode's restrictions so much as Wraith just has much better deck manipulation than Bunker does. Of course the points against Bunker by comparing Wraith can also be made with Mr. Fixer and Ex-Patriette.

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There are both Pydro's Guide to Bunker and flamethrower's Guide.

5

He has cards that do things on their own, so you aren't completely crippled while using Recharge Mode.

Try the Gatling Gun/Omni-Cannon/Recharge Mode combo. Free 2 damage at the start of your turn, power up the most potentially powerful attack in the GAME, and draw 3 cards, plus DR1. Then discard a card. Add on Heavy Plating for an extra DR, and Ammo Drop for more cards in hand, and you can safely build up, while dealing consistant damage while you wait for the BOOM to end all booms.

 

Or, go pure-damage route: Flak Cannon, Grenade Launcher, Gatling Gun, Turret Mode. throw in Ammo Drop to feed Gatling Gun, and he throws around SO MUCH DAMAGE.

 

Also, he has OTHER CARDS as well, besides his 2 guns and ammo drop. Adhesive foam grenade, Aux. Power unit, Heavy Plating, Omni-Cannon (very very good), External Combustion (great for fueling Ammo Drop), Gatling Gun. Recharge mode helps get you set up fast, and the longer you set up for it the more ground you gain. Sure, it's mediocre if you only use it for 3 turns, but use it for 5 or 6 and you'll REALLY get set up.

 

6

I'll admit that I also don't like how the different modes reduce my options (i.e., fun).  Once I enter turret mode, I'm not getting new cards anymore so I'd better be happy with what I've got in play for the rest of the game.  At some point, I'll just get so bored shooting my current set of guns that I'll choose to trash the Mode just so I can start drawing cards again.  The other modes similarly lock you into doing one thing turn after turn, which isn't a ton of fun.  It's one reason I like Future Bunker better - those Mode cards which were reducing my fun before are now increasing my fun by taking out the enemy's Ongoings.

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I think one key to my enjoyment of Bunker is looking at the modes as short-term opportunities. I make a point not to consider the modes something that I'll be in for too long - just long enough to use them for what I need at the time, then drop out to do the next useful thing.

McBehrer's example for Recharge Mode is a great one, and is only one example. There are many of them.

But then I find humor in Turret Mode/Heavy Plating/Maintenance Unit/a gun, as Bunker becomes a wonderful tank that can soak a lot of damage while still shooting things… :sunglasses:

8

I have read Bunker guides and I simply cannot see a reason to take him over other similar damage capable heroes like Haka, Wraith, Tempest, or Ra. It is not that I do not LIKE Bunker (I would love to play an awesome Iron Man style hero) but that I feel he is simply underpowered compared to other heroes because of the mediocrity of his modes.

I am aware of him netting 3 cards per turn with Recharge Mode when he skips his turn. But this is only after the intitial turn he plays it on. On the turn he plays it he only nets 2 cards (same as he would normally with Initialize), even though this turn is essentially a dead turn as well.

As for Wraith's combo, yes it does take one less card but I have found that it is much, much easier to get out because of Impromptu Invention/Trust Fund even though it is one more card to play. Even Bunker's basic Flak/Grenade/Turret combo is harder to get out because it relies solely on drawing the correct 3 cards and Bunker has no real digs (for instance draw 4 discard 2, something Wraith has in addition to Impromtu Invention). For Wraith's combo all you need to do is get one of the four cards and Impromptu Invention and bam you have half the setup. And even during the times that you don't have your full setup on Wraith you have very effective control options, while Bunker doesn't. Suffice to say I have had much better luck getting out Wraith's damage cards faster than Bunker's.

Engine of Destruction Bunker does sound better than regular Bunker. The fact that he does is rather sad to me though. His modes will do more good being discarded out of my hand to destroy ongoings then actually being used. They're so bad that he needs SOMETHING to do with them besides just letting them rot in his hand.

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You might look at getting a hold of the promo Engine of War Bunker; he loses Initialize, making the extra draw from Recharge Mode seem more attractive, and more to the point his Locomotion power can discard a Mode to destroy an Ongoing card (not always useful, since some villains don't have them, but others have extremely potent ones).

Overall, I think you're oversimplifying.  Bunker is about specialization, building up to an awesome combo.  Recharging for several turns lets you build up to an awesome combo-out while being resistant to damage; Upgrade Mode can play multiple External Combustions for a single big boom or can get you set up with all the weapons you need; Turret Mode is just More Dakka but a very efficient form thereof (especially if you have a Gatling Gun and the cards to power it).  But ultimately, Bunker might just not be your character, just like I'm terrible with Fanatic, but have a buddy who routinely wins games with her.  The great thing about the many characters is that they suit different personalities.

10

And I think Envisioner's last point is the best: Just because a hero isn't right for us individually - as a player - doesn't mean there's anything wrong with that hero. :slightly_smiling_face:

11

You know, a bunch of people hate fixer because he is lackluster in straight up damage output. 

If you want bunker to be a major damage dealer like Ra or Tempest, you are not exactly playing bunker to his strength. His damage is not supposed to keep pace with them (although he certainly is capable). 

Rabits right. Some heros arnt for everyone. Nothing wrong with that. But different heros require different mind sets and play styles. 

12

If Bunker is not supposed to keep pace with Ra or Tempest in damage, which is the only thing he can do besides Adhesive Foam Grenades (which is pretty underwhelming), then does that not make him objectively worse than either of them?

I can see unique niches that every hero in the game fills. All of them have at least one thing that they are amazing at compared to others. I generally catagorize heroes as a mix of support, control, and damage (Ra for instance is the purest damage in the game, having only 1 support card and it's offensive in nature). Bunker is almost PURELY damage but falls short of other heroes in this category and he seems to have no redeeming features.

Unfourtunetly I am not familiar with Mr. Fixer or Expatriate as I do not own Rook City.

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December 2, 2013 - 7:03pm  #7 Rabit
December 2, 2013 - 7:09pm (new) #8 Zed
December 2, 2013 - 7:13pm #9 Envisioner
December 2, 2013 - 7:20pm (new)  #10 Rabit
 
I have no idea how this happened....
 
EDIT:  I still don't.
 
Also, don't dismiss Adhesive Foam Grenade.  Bunker is the ONLY character who can do this.

 

<Edited to remove tags - Rabit>

14

But Bunker does do more than simply deal consistent damage.  He can tank (Maintenance Unit/Heavy Plating), deal out global damage (External Combustion), and even set up a damage spike (via OmniCannon) more flexibly and reliably than Tachyon and more often than Haka.  And, to date, only he and Nightmist can shut down the Environment deck.  Compare this to Ra?  Ra deals damage and can occasionally throw cards from the Environment trash back under the deck.  Unless I know I'm facing a ton of Equipment destruction, I'll take Bunker every time.

I'm okay with Bunker's overall damage being slightly lower than Ra just because of that:  he can do more.  Ra, despite his hit points, can't tank.  Tempest, despite his awesome healing ability, often gets stuck in the "lowest HP hero" trap and can be rather fragile.  And, each round you spend playing Tempest's armor card or Cleansing Downpour is a round that he's not slinging Chain Lightning or Lightning Slash.  Bunker provides a happy medium, getting around those weaknesses. 

To frame it in football-draft terms, Bunker's "upside" isn't as high, but he's a consistent producer who can take on multiple roles.  Plug him in on your offensive line and you've got a consistent starter for the next decade.

15

I wouldn't say Ra can't tank; he starts with 30 HP and can regain 12 in short order by repeatedly summoning his Staff.  This can make him as much of a tank as some parties get.

16

I would agree. Ra is surprisingly durable due to his high base HP and staff summoning. As for Maintanance Unit/Heavy Plating: Tempest has the exact same two cards except his heal covers ALL hero targets. So Tempest tanking up and healing > Bunker tanking up and healing.

17

True, Tempest is better at tank+heal (unless you have Scholar in the team demanding NOT to be healed because he needs his HP to drop for Mortal Form to Energy to deal damage).  But Bunker is better at straight tanking, because he can get both Heavy Plating and Recharge Mode.  It means he does nothing else while tanking, but being able to take only 1 damage from a 3-damage hit is pretty huge.  Even better if Tempest puts down Shielding Winds, making a 5-damage hit reduce to 1 (though annoyingly a 4-damage hit stays at 2; the winds are fickle).

18

I recommend more games of Sentinels of the Multiverse, trying out Bunker at least every once and awhile. He may eventually grow on you! Or it'll just reveal that Bunker is not the hero for you. Either way, at least you are playing Sentinels of the Multiverse, the greatest fixed deck, super hero themed, cooperative card game!

19

I have done a house rule to speed up Bunker for people who want him to move from a solid team member to more of a beast.  It keeps him pretty well balanced, but definitely moves him up the list in how effective he is.

Not that he needs it, four cards isn't a tough setup, his only real problem for me is he has no card pull, so sometimes you end up a card or two off of where you'd like to be, even setting realistic expectations.

(the four cards refers to one of my favorite Bunker set ups, Turret, Plating, Grenade, Maintenance)

I add a little text:

Recharge Mode:

You may destroy this card at the start of your turn, if you do you may put a mode card into play from your hand or trash.

Upgrade Mode:

You may destroy this card at the start of your turn, if you do you may search your deck for an equipment card and put it in your hand.

Turret Mode:

At the Start of your turn you may destroy one of your cards, if you do you may put a card from your hand into play.

 

Recharge lets you switch directly into upgrade without losing a card play, but you can also pull a mode from your trash which helps for discards or if you don't have one in your hand.

Upgrade gives him the ability to pull an equip from your deck, something Bunker is really missing.

Turret just lets you switch out what you have out, or sacrifice one to play combustion.

20

@Zed: you won't find consensus on Hero's power around here. What there is consensus is that the game's goal is not competition but fun so tweaking characters is not frowned upon or anything. But you won't find consensus either in how to go with it :-P

@phanta: I have been trying to simplify my variants and thus trying to change the least amount of cards possible. I have to try it, but thougth of giving Bunker Ammo Drop in play from the set-up (even make it indestructible?). Buker does a good showing when he is swimming in cards, find Omni or Gatling and can feed it while doing other stuff (without the need to change more text).

The one I had tried was giving Upgrade "You may play Initialize power" and Recharge "You may play Maintenance Unit power".