Character Creation Methods and Balance

Games Sentinel Comics RPG
1

Starting from another thread

Godai: "Where as to me, it seems a lot of posters here get locked into Guided Method (The book does 90% of the work for you) or Constructed Method (the book does 40% of the work for you), that they just ignore the Third Method (You have a concept? You build it!). In my limited free time, I've been trying to update the Cauldron heroes to SC:RPG, and lemme tell you, you can't do a bunch of them without using the Third Method. Sometimes the Constructed Method just doesn't work for what you want to build."

Rabit:  "Because I've usually come up with the character concept / personality before I even start character generation, I've almost exclusively used the third method of just building it. :-) It's really a fun exercise in posibilities, and has always resulted in me rethinking aspects of the character that make them (to me) more interesting!  

EDIT: I was wrong -- I use the second method and never the third. :-\  " 

fjur:  " You can do whatever you want to do, no one is going to stop you. Some of us may want to fully realise our character concept, without heeding constricting rules; and some of us may want to follow those rules, because they help maintain a balanced play experience. No one way is better than the other (although I do personally prefer one way other the other, as you can see above : P).   (Also, if we want to continue this discussion, I suggest someone start a new thread. This thread is for rating hero builds, not discussing levels of rule-following. ; )) "

 

Reading through the Abilities, and the different dice, Powers, and Qualities granted by the Sources and Archetypes, I'm honestly not certain just how balanced the Guided and Constructed methods really are -- that is, I have my doubts that following either method results in inherent strong balance.  It would seem instead to impose a certain set of bounds on the possible mechanical strength of builds, within which there is considerable variation.   

(The power/quantity count issue, however, is figured out... set that aside.)

The discussion in this thread would seem to lend credence to that suspicion:  https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/mindwanderers-character-creation-tips-21709

Example:  are the different defensive Abilities different in ways that creates more balanced characters, or are they different in ways that create palpable differences between different (smalle-a) character archetypes?   Certain combinations have more defensive Abilities than they can take, other combinations end up with one tightly limited defensive ability.  

 

I wonder if anyone's had thoughts about coming up with a more freeform method that still sets some limits... but every time I start looking at how I might do that, I end up part way down the road to a point-build system like HERO.  Maybe just say "you get these 3 dice for Powers, these 3 dice for Qualities, and these 2 die for either... pick 3 Green, 3 Yellow, and 2 Red from anywhere... pick 2 Principles". 

 

I do have to ask... why is the "Third Method" seen as "not following the rules" when it's right there in the rulebook? 

 

2

The third method in the book is explicitly stated in the book as not following the rules. You just pick whatever powers, qualities, dice sizes, and abilities that you want, regardless of whatever the sections you are picking from say.

3

The Secret Third Option

"Of course, you can make a hero without using either
of these two methods. If you’re trying to replicate an
existing hero and have already made heroes using
one of the other methods, you might just assign
powers, qualities, abilities, etc. as you see fit from
any entries. Even if you have your GM’s permission
to use this method to make your hero, the GM
still has to sign off on your hero build when you’re
done."

 

 

4

Alright then, one correction to my previous statement. It doesn't explictly state that it breaks the rules laid out for character creation. What it does state is that are able to ignore any rules given in the game that would limit you from taking specific abilities or assigning dice to powers or qualities. Which is effectively the same thing.

5

The rulebook also warns you that you might end up with heroes that are not fun to play with in your group. 

6

As with any fully freeform character creation, that's always a risk. 

Also, are there unforeseen synergies between Abilities that would normally be prevented by the first two methods because the abilities are locked in different Sources or Archetypes? 

7

I suppose the only way to determine that is trial and error. I doubt anyone has made a "list of hidden synergies." It seems like something you'll just have to find by making characters.

8

I have to apologies, as I did not read the difference between the second and third options. I always do the second option, not the third. :-\ Sorry for that misunderstanding! 

9

I was going to add your edit from the other thread to the quote above, to avoid misrepresenting you. 

 

10

Figured I'd use my own thread to ask this since there's not much activity and it relates to Ability choices the player has to make in character creation.

I've seen several comments that SEEM to imply characters only have access to the Abilities that match the current status, which had me concerned because I had thought that moving to Yellow or Red opened up those Abilities in addition to the previous Statuses' Abilities.  So I went back to the book, and eventually found the text that covers it:

Abilities are tricks, tactics, or talents you possess that let you change how your dice results are
applied. Abilities are unlocked and available for you to use based on your current status; when your
status is Green, you can only use abilities in the Green zone. When it’s Yellow, you can use Green
and Yellow abilities. When your status is Red, you can use Red, Yellow, and Green abilities.
When your status is Out, you have a single ability you may use.

Am I just reading too much into the comments here, or is there a philosophy for "most effective" Ability selection and usage that underlies these comments, or something else? 

 

11

Yeah, I think it is mostly just the idea that Abilities that are harder to unlock are more powerful, because otherwise they wouldn't be harder to unlock. I think that is why folks talk about using "lower" Abilities more than "higher" ones, when both are available. Of course, there are scenarios when, for example, using a Green Zone Ability in the Yellow Zone would be better than using a Yellow Zone Ability. (i.e. you're facing a single Villain that you want to Attack but all your Yellow Zone Attack Abilities are multi-target, but you do have a single-target Green one.)

12

There's also a lot of potential synergy between them. For example, having "Pushing Your Limits" as a Red and using it to access your Green and Yellow reactions. 

13

If you want a decent example of Pushing The Limits with Green or Yellow reactions, look for Scabbard on page 1 of the rating thread.

14

For a character with a lot of Health and multiple Reaction powers, that's... yeah, pretty effective. 

15

Scabbard was the first hero I actually built in the Sentinels RPG using the Constructed Method, albeit not the first *version* of that hero. He's still one of my favorites to play, despite how rarely I get to actually play him.

16

I apologize as I'm not really sure what the point of this thread is.  Is it about game balance between Abilities? If so, yeah, MindWanderer has already aptly demonstrated that not all Abilities are balanced.  However, in my experience, unless one person has lots of better Abilities, and no one else has any, you're not going to notice.

If it's about whether you'll ever use, for example, Green Abilities once you're in Yellow, definitely.  I think it's always best to look at your current Zone first, but sometimes you just need what a Green Ability gives you.

For me, this is based on me GMing 4 characters for about 100 hours so far.

17

On a related note, when using the constructed method, do you pick ANY Source, Archetype etc, or only  within the range of that hypothetical dice rolling?

I tend to restrict myself to the latter, but then that ultimately means only Relic and Supernatural-powered Heroes could EVER be modular...

With that in mind, I don't find the wording in the rule particularly unambiguous... What  you think is the 'intended' interpretation here?

18

The book says to use the dice you rolled for your archetype based off your power source .  Either keeping the same roll to choose that second archetype or rerolling. 

19

I thought the guided method used the dice roll, and the constructed method was straight "pick your origin, source, and archetype".

20

I think they got it mixed up so I answered based off guided method.