This. I completely agree, phantaskippy. It might be easier to look at the intention of things, here.
But then again, we can do whatever we want – it's not like this is a competitive game!
I think the intention is that they are the same, and should be treated as such for purposes like this – that this is just a way for folks who didn't get Kvothe to still have the card. They power and HP are the same, afterall. But that's just me…
I thought this came up during playtesting and yes, that it can be done. Anyone else remember differently?
That makes sense. I was thinking more along the lines that once you switched to a variant you kind of switched to all of them and this could pick a particular size.
I guess until Handelabra gets around to implementing this variant of guise in the game we wont get an official ruling on this. I can see multiple arguments for and against being correct.
It would be great if GTG took a page from Pinnacle(Savage Worlds creators) for rules questions where they have a dedicated forum where only 1 person, their in house rules lawyer, posts an official response to each question asked.
The discussion is great, it can just be a little frustrating not knowing the official ruling.
We were getting official rulings long before Handelabra was providing them. The problem is that GtG isn’t big enough for any of their staff to have the time to constantly monitor the rules forum.
I think it's also the case that some of the issues are tricky to deal with consistently, and they weren't forced to make consistent decisions until the video game came along. Fortunately the co-op nature of the game helps here.
One official ruling is that "hero" is shorthand for "hero character card." And with that change: "Replace a hero character card in play with a variant of that hero character card," it sure seems a lot more clear that you're meant to stay the same size--although it also suggests that you can use this to mix and match Skyscraper's variants.
Of course, then you also get awesomeness like "Guise deals each target 2 sonic damage and switches to her Normal character card." Which is easy to resolve, you just can't follow the second clause, but it's pretty funny anyway.
I think that's only for the non-tabletop version of the game. If "Hero" means "Hero Character Card" you run into issues concerning Plague Rat trying to Infect the Sentinels ;).
Hero is explicitly Hero Character card and that scenario with Infection is explicitly listed in the Vengenace rulebook. What you do is pick one of the Sentinels Hero cards and that one is infected but it counts the group as one hero for Plague Rat flipping. So even though only one Sentinels member is infected if the rest of the heroes are also infected then Plague Rat will still flip.
Bringing this conversation back to sky-scraper, in my personal interpretation of the rules I have come to a few conclusions:
switching character cards
many of sky-scraper’s powers say to switch to a particular character card. switching character cards does not involve removing a card from play, nor does it involve destroying a card. you can never have more than one of her character cards in play at the same time. sky-scraper’s hp does not change when she switches character cards.
-Spiffs Rules & Clarifications
From my reading of this I believe that sky-scraper should not be treated as 3 cards but rather 1 card with 6 sides (3 of which are the incapacitated sides) because she behaves in the same way to a villain flipping, i.e., her hp doesn't change, no cards have entered or left play and her card text has changed. It's impossible to have a single card with six sides so she is instead 3 cardboard entities which represent 1 card.
From there I conclude that when swapping her variant and herself around with guise, the first time you swap her variant in she should be forced to change to normal sized variant as that is how her card enters play at the start of the game (see chairman being played from his own deck) but thereafter she must change to the card under guise as putting a second skyscraper card into play is impossible. That said, this is just how I'd play it out until an official ruling is passed down from on high.
She has 3 character cards. 2 of them are in imaginary stasis land until summoned. They aren't in or out of play, they just aren't. Then you switch her active character card to a different card. Doesn't leave play, doesn't enter play, her character card just magically changes to a different card, through the mystical powers of switch.
You don't default to the way you started the game when Guise replaces your character card with a variant of that card.
Whatever size Sky-Scraper's card is at the moment he replaces it would determine the size her varaint card replacing it would be.
Guise isn't switching character cards that aren't in play for variants of those cards, if he could do that you could use any hero card in the box. You swap the card in play with a variant of that card. Normal Sky-Scraper is not a variant of Extremist Huge Sky-Scraper, it is a variant of Extremist Normal Sky-Scraper.
It works like that because Normal Sky-Scraper isn't a variant of Huge Sky-Scraper. Sky-Scraper is 3 character cards, but only one at a time. Just like you wouldn't swap all 4 Sentinels if you used Guise's power. You would choose one of the character cards in play and swap that card for a variant of that hero character card.
I'm willing to concede that she may not have to be switched to the normal size the first time, but with the rules you've described it is possible to end up with 2 of her sizes in play at once, by say, swapping out her normal sized card switching her to giant and swapping that out. Because the cards under guise are still in play (his card does not state otherwise) you are in a sense overruling a previous ruling or declaring that once you swap her out she must be that size again before reswapping with guise.
Also I'll point out that her size is not part of her name. It is a keyword. Just like how Skinwalker Gloomweaver loses the keyword "zombie" when he flips, she gains and loses a keyword when she switches.
The reason I said to treat her like a single character card is because of the ruling that states "you can never have more than one of her character cards in play at the same time." I believe this mechanically causes her to behave almost exactly like a villain character flipping (besides efects that happen on flip like health restoration) although physically you need to swap a card for another because they only have 2 sides, not 6.
I feel like I need to conclude this but can't so I'll just leave this as is.
You can switch the card in play with a variant of that card. That would not let you switch a normal sky-scraper under Guise for a Huge Sky Scraper in play. Because the normal card under Guise isn't a variant of huge sky-scraper.
Guise can get up to three character cards of Sky-Scraper's under his card. he just has to replace each one individually with their variant.
Cards under Guise being in play doesn't even apply here, because if that is a problem it is a problem with literally every single hero in the game. They also are not counted as being in play, or at least not treated as being a character card, or a card from your deck because they do not add to the count of cards you have in play.
Would Fixed Point prevent Completionist Guise from using his power to switch people's character cards, then, since they technically are attempting to leave play when he "collects" them?
Is that right? It was my understanding that the heroes DO count as a card in play, and that specifically The Southwest Sentinels will almost always be the hero with the "most cards in play".
The Sentinels count as having five cards in play from the start with the four heroes and the setup card. Other heroes count as having one card in play for their character card.
