We just played the Dreamer in the Final Wasteland (got crushed...Bunker + Unity + Wraith seems like a great team, but they got walloped before they could set up) and I have a question about Dreamer's interaction with the Unforgiving Wasteland card. On a search of the forum, the closest thing I found was this thread.
Suppose the Dreamer has flipped and Unforgiving Wasteland is in play. The environment destroys a Projection. The Dreamer's rule card says "when a Projection is destroyed, put it under this card." Unforgiving Wasteland says, "when the environment would destroy a target, remove it from the game instead." I think - and the thread I referenced seems consistent with this interpretation - that if the environment deals enough damage to a Projection to destroy it that it would be removed, instead of placing it under the Dreamer's rule card, because Unforgiving Wasteland says would be destroyed and that happens before the target is destroyed. (Correct?)
But what if the environment destroys the Dreamer herself?
The Dreamer's loss condition says "if the Dreamer is reduced to 0 or fewer HP or otherwise destroyed, the heroes lose. Game over."
If the environment would destroy the Dreamer, and she gets removed from the game...not game over? (Assuming that the Dreamer's rule card is attached to her character card, as it would be in an oversized version.)
I am guessing that the Dreamer's reduction to 0 HP happens before she "would be" destroyed, which happens before she "is" destroyed. So her text causes the game to end before Unforgiving Wasteland removes her.
In typing that out I sort of convinced myself of the answer, but do I have that right?
Since the Dreamer's win condition is an or situation, the heroes would still lose as long as her HP would be reduced to 0 even if she wouldn't be destroyed. Only an effect like Sucker Punch or Wrathful Gaze would get around that and Final Wasteland doesnt have any of those
Given that Final Wasteland and The Dreamer were written at approximately the same time, I expet that the designer deliberately made sure the inetraction between them didn't cause undesired effects.
On the other hand, if you fight the Matriarch in the Final Wasteland, and can get out a Horrid Skunk Ape and Unforgiving Wasteland, and then make sure that you whittle down Huginn and Muninn (when they come out) to the point that something from the environment will finish them off, you'll find you have a very, very easy game indeed…and no feedback damage when all those birdies are removed from the game because they're being removed from the game, not destroyed :D. And yes, we did this once. It was epic :D.
I believe the correct answer is actually "Players Choice"
From the Order of Operations ruling:
Any cards with "start of turn" or "end of turn" text happen in order of cards played, as before. However, anything else that acts "simultaneously" goes in whatever order the players choose, as with all ambiguous situations in Sentinels of the Multiverse.
Whether the Dreamer's reaction and Final Wastelands reaction are simultaneous or not could be up for debate I think, but it certainly falls in the "ambiguous at best" catagory. So put the projection under Dreamer if that's what is best, or remove it from the game if you choose. I'd expect the app to handle it this way as well and consider both of them simultaneous effects that both trigger upon destruction.
"if the Dreamer is reduced to 0 or fewer HP or otherwise destroyed, the heroes lose. Game over."
It wouldn't matter if dropping to 0 or lower is simultaneous to destruction or not. If she drops to 0, or is destroyed, game over. If she gets removed from the game by Final Wasteland because she dropped to 0 or fewer or destroyed, its game over. There is no possible situation where the Dreamer is removed from the game and the game still continues or counts as a win. It's a loss.
We do not have a ruling that cards removed from the game still process their text.
HP dropping to 0 triggers destruction, I doubt triggers and responses happen simultaneously.
But if they did you could process and cancel her destruction first, at which point she was not destroyed and no text from her card is in play to do anything about her HP that she no longer has because she isn't a target if she isn't in the game.
Largely it was a joke, we already know hp dropping to 0 isn't simultaneous with destruction/incapacitation, or you could choose to destroy Apostate or Fanatic when they drop to 0 or lower.
So Foote, does your comment about it being players’ choice for the Projections mean that “a target would be destroyed” and “a target is destroyed” are simultaneous events?
No. What I said is that it falls under "Ambiguous", at the very best, therefore it would get treated as if they were simultaneous (resulting in players choice of how to resolve)
Omnitron doesn't process his text from outside the game, it is triggered by his destruction, and the effect lasts on the field until the condition of all devices leaving play occurs, then heroes win the game.
It works like mistbound, or anything that uses next.
Yeah, I think we’re all cool with the Dreamer’s loss condition. I still think that “would be” comes before “is,” but maybe that’s because reading engineering requirements taught me to be very literal. Can I get a link to the ruling that they are simultaneous?
However, for sake of petty argument, lets say that Final Wasteland did remove Dreamer from the game technically before her text could resolve.
My contention is that how could you, as a player, gamer, and fan of SotM in general, sleep at night thinking that game was anything but a loss? Knowing full well going into it that you need to save this little girl, you're gonna tell me with a straight face that allowing her to be savagley torn apart and eaten by the wasteland until there wasn't a single trace of her left in the entire game was a draw? Thats some cojones.