Elementalism Question

“The elements” are pretty much my favorite concept in all of fantasy fiction; I’m a huge fan of things like the Temple of Elemental Evil in D&D, or the use of the four Crystals and related element-centric bosses in Final Fantasies 1, 4, and 5 (and also 3 and possibly 2, but I’m not super familiar with those). I also don’t believe in limiting this to the Classical Greek quartet; ever since the Wood Elemental card in the third ever Magic the Gathering expansion, later joined by numerous others like Cloud and Lightning and Fungus. Now, I’m interested in this kind of longer list, but I’m also a bit of a purist; when you’re making a collection of things that are, for lack of a term, cosmically important, I want that list to be fully exhaustive and have a specifically chosen, not super large number of items. Something like Fungus shouldn’t make the cut of being counted as a full Element, IMO, and Cloud or Storm or Fog all feel like subsets of Air rather than separate Elements. A guy who extensively detailed his rather awesome D&D setting on YouTube uses eight elements, the classic four plus Light and Dark and two others that I disagree with (I tend to disagree with Light and Dark as well, specifically for D&D, because they overlap too much with Positive and Negative Energy, which are from a separate group of Inner Planes than the Elemental ones, but I digress). But the number that I ended up settling on for my own D&D setting is slightly larger…I have 16 elements in total, and am very satisfied with all but one or two of them.

You’re not here to listen to me describe my homebrew campaign, though (unless you are, in which case I’ll happily go on for hours). Instead, I hope to solicit some input as to how you guys see the subject. Specifically, this is inspired by the Editor’s Note about Nexus Primalis, where C&A belabored the question of what to call the Void Volcano (I disagree with their eventual decision, but again that’s not what I’m here to go on about). They briefly referenced their old “void jelly” joke, and even though this isn’t meant to be anything resembling the in-setting lore, it did make me think about the idea of Nexus of the Void being effectively Spirit Island, and thus equating the Void with the substance of which Spirits are made. While I personally envision “spirit stuff” as being more like smoke, courtesy of the movies Shazam and The New Mutants having absolutely amazing special effects which use this conceit, I can definitely see an argument for it being some sort of half-misty and half-gelatinous unsubstance, like ectoplasm in Ghostbusters and other spirit-centric media, or Incarnum in a somewhat obscure D&D supplement that I might well be the world’s tenth or hundredth or so biggest fan of, exceeded mostly only by its actual authors. Only probably not green like Ghostbusters ectoplasm, and definitely not blue like Incarnum, but probably colorless by default, able to take on any appearance depending on what kind of spirit it shapes into.

So, the actual question for you guys: given an assigment to visually portray “spirit stuff” as a consistent single semi-material, regardless of what type of spirit it is, what do you envision it looking like? Besides smoke and mist, or jelly and ectoplasm, can you think of any other appropriate ways to portray the “matter” of the Other Side, either an afterlife or a realm of animistic 'small gods"?

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I bet you would enjoy the fantasy epics by Brandon Sanderson or Brent Weeks. For Sanderson, I’m thinking particularly of the Stormlight Archive, in which the titular Stormlight is kind of a fundamental force/power source that does make things glow but is described as appearing and behaving more like steam, and transforms into a number of what you might call elemental forces. (Sanderson is notorious for breaking down magic systems into highly rule -based systems based on specific building blocks.) Weeks’ The Lightbringer series has a substance called luxin, which I’d describe as condensed light. It appears only in certain colors, each of which has different properties.

Just for a cool vidual effect for something otherworldly, the recently concluded HBO His Dark Materials series had a really neat visual effect for the creatures known as angels. They were depicted as a sort of sparse collection of points with refraction around their aggregate outline. Refraction actually makes a lot of physical sense for some weird force appearing in our universe, because strong electric, magnetic, or gravitational fields all bend light.

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It’s described as shadow (a word I’m about to become very tired of) rather than spirit, but another example of this kind of thing is detailed in the Shadowmancy chapter of the 3E Tome of Magic (which is famously ill balanced, but this doesn’t matter since we’re just looking at fluff). The shadow-stuff of the transitive Plane of Shadows, home of the Illumian race and inspiration for the 4E and 5E Shadowfell, is detailed in TOM3 as being like a cluster of wispy tendrils or strings, which wind tightly together to mimic hard substances, but can bunch and tangle more loosely to emulate softer solids, and can even become akin to energy forms like lightning (darkning?) and fire, as per the Shadow Evocation spell, an illusion which mimics a wizard’s traditional AOE blasts.

(Tangent: If you ever want to know exactly what darkning looks like, check out the aforementioned Shazam film, which has probably the best special effects work I’ve ever seen in it. The purple and black beams that Sivana hurls are a gloriously perfect mirror of the more conventional electric bolts produced by the titular hero. They look super impressive both in concept art and in freeze frames from the DVD.)

If you wanted to do a science fantasy thing that played loosey-goosey (or timey-wimey, if you will) with its use of terms like String Theory and Dark Matter, the shadow stuff concept from TOM3 would probably be a good way to pull that off. It’s about as scientifically accurate as Hulk getting powers from gamma radiation, or The Force letting you intercept blaster shots with a plasma sword, but if comic book science is good enough for you (and I have crazy hunch that it probably is), then you’re in business.

I don’t have much time to read books anymore (audiobooks work better for me), and what I’ve heard about Sanderson mostly revolves around a series where the magic comes from various metals. Maybe it’s cool, but I have other things to busy myself with for a good long while before I get around to checking such novels out.

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Yeah, they’re pretty high up there for me too.

Before answering your actual question below, I’d like to take this moment to just list some elemental sets that I’m aware of.

Somewhat relatedly to your actual question, Spirit Island has eight elements: Fire :fire:, Water :water:, Air :wind:, Earth :earth:, Plant :plant:, Animal :animal:, Sun :sun:, and Moon. (Which for some reason this forum doesn’t have an emoji for.)

Sentinel Comics: The Roleplaying Game has the Elemental/Energy Category of Powers, which includes Cold, Cosmic, Electricity, Fire, Infernal, Nuclear, Radiant, Sonic, and Weather. There are also the Materials Powers, which are Metal, Plants, Stone, Toxic, and Transmutation. The last of those isn’t about manipulating a given material, but rather transforming one sort of material into another.

And lastly, TV Tropes of course has an pretty extensively exhaustive list of possible elements a work may include: Elemental Powers - TV Tropes.

I know that I, for one, would be interested in hearing your list of elements.

The Spirits of Spirit Island aren’t made from a single type of spirit-stuff, rather, they quite literally are nature. They’re formed from aspects of the natural world, whether that be stone, water, plants, wild beasts, dreams and nightmares, disease, or actual mist and fog. More akin to elementals than ghosts. I believe that this is somewhat close to real-world animism. (Of course, I’m talking about Spirit Island, not the Nexus of the Void, so who knows if this is canon to the latter.)

Well, if we’re talking about Void spirits, I definitely envision them being purple. This is supported by the cover of Freedom Five #802, as featured in the SCRPG Starter Kit issue “Void If Broken:”

Below are how a couple of other IPs portray it.

The colour of magic in Terry Pratchett’s Discworld books is called Octarine and described by the character Rincewind as “greenish yellow-purple.”

The spirits in Avatar: The Last Airbender and The Legend of Korra look like normal plants or animals, anthropomorphised plants or animals, mixtures of different plants and/or animals. traditional Chinese mythological creatures, or blobby ink blots with dark blue and purple shading:

Okay, here’s a brief description of the system that I’ve worked out over the past 10 years of D&D worldbuilding. We start with the classic four elements, but I’m referring to these rather as “essences” for the sake of clarity: the current names for these essences are Stone, Sky, Heat, and Flow. Everything in existence, then, contains 0 to 4 of these Essences, and its nature is determined by which combination is present (in quantities sufficient to matter; if you have 97% Stone and 1% each of the other three, you count as Earth-elemental regardless of the fact that you’re not technically pure, in the way an actual Elemental from the Earth Plane would be). Any being which is almost entirely composed of a single Essence is therefore representative of the corresponding classic Element.

A being which is roughly half Stone and half Heat is elemental to neither Fire nor Earth, but rather to Metal, while one which is half Stone and half Flow is elemental to Wood. Likewise, half Sky and half Heat is elemental to Lightning, and combining Sky with Flow produces neither Air nor Water, but the combination element of the two. This is one of several elements I’ve had trouble finding a perfectly fitting name for, but out of convenience I call it Thunder, representing Sonic damage, although a more precise name would be Wave or Pressure, as it represents any compression force that travels through a largely-fluid medium.

The “opposite” element pairs, Stone/Sky and Heat/Flow, are harder to explain, so I’ll come back to them in a minute; first we must look at the elements which are made up of three Essences, and thus are essentially the opposite of the element which is made up of the omitted Essence. The glaringly obvious example, and pretty much the reason I ever needed to have more than four elements in the first place, is Cold, the opposite of Fire; this is therefore obviously formed by having roughly equal amounts of Sky, Stone, and Flow while being almost completely absent of Heat.

The second most obvious of these “anti-elements”, by a fairly considerable distance, is anti-Water, composed of Earth, Air, and Fire (or rather of Stone, Sky, and Heat - you see why I made up these additional terms). I call this element Sand, which makes intuitive sense for now, and that’s the most important part, even if it’s going to cause us some problems later. This is basically the element of anything you would imagine finding in a desert (excluding technical deserts like Antarctica) - blisteringly hot sun, wind-blown sand that can cut you to ribbons, air too hot to breathe, ground that shifts beneath your feet, and of course a constant parching dryness.

Third of these anti-elements is anti-Earth, or Spirit, which is the element I was thinking about when I made this thread. As the combination of Sky, Heat, and Flow, it is quite well represented by a swirling semi-liquid mass of smoke, or by a congealed sort of gel which is alive with energy. But just as Earth is the most mundane and material of the elements, its opposite corresponds to a substance which doesn’t physically exist, and can only interact with the world through the exertion of magical force that reaches from “beyond the veil”, affecting the normal world only in places which are particularly transmundane, such as sacred ritual sites.

The hardest to define was anti-Air, the combination of Heat, Stone, and Flow. I sort of gave up and used this slot to insert something that I’ve long wanted an Elemental-type plane for in my D&D campaign, despite not really being able to work out which Element it should be; Fire and Water seemed to correspond at the very least, but Earth was hard to rule out, and it wasn’t clearly obvious that Air should be excluded either. However, ultimately I think of air as tending to be a crisp and refreshing force, something very light and dynamic and…well, airy, and this element is very much not any of that, so while it might generally need to consume small-a Air in order to live, it does seem at least loosely fitting as elementally aversive to big-a Air. This element, then, is Flesh, the element which corresponds to animal tissue as Wood does to plant tissue of any sort (calling the element Wood rather than Plant is largely a matter of good branding; the former simply sounds more appropriately mystical, and the same applies here).

That then brings us back to the last two pairings, which had a lot of issues. The easier of the two for me to understand, despite all the scientific imprecision involved, is an element I’m currently calling Glass, which is also symbolically very indicative of Time (I wouldn’t call Time an element myself, for the same reason that I wouldn’t call Light and Dark elements in the sense I use the term; if nothing else, D&D gives us Energy Planes for Positive and Negative Energy which map very well to Light and Darkness, and there’s an optional third such plane called Temporal Energy, which likewise matches Time…I also invented an opposite for that one, but that’s another story). The reason this element bugs the crap of me is that Glass is made of Air/Sky and Earth/Stone, and if you add Heat/Fire to Glass it then turns into Sand, which is the opposite of how that actually works. I’m considering changing one of these names to Dust in order to clarify the distinction, but I haven’t figured out which one; regardless, the fact that the “time” element can literally be symbolized by a glass hourglass full of sand, but is elemental to Glass and not to Sand (and also not to Metal, which is probably part of what a mechanical hourglass is made of)…this is one of the flaws in my theory.

A much bigger issue comes in with the Heat/Flow element that I roundaboutly alluded to before; one of the few reasons I haven’t entirely given up on this one is that, in D&D, there are Elemental Princes as major setting antagonists associated with all four of the classic elements, as well as a Cold-aligned one, Cryonax (the classic four have much more random names which don’t really correspond to their element at all, other than debatably the water one, Olhydra). And this element is the only one that I have not only conceptualized an Elemental Prince for, but even given that creature a name: Chemnox. The name of the element itself, however, is proving harder to pin down, because it is an element of “highly reactive chemicals”, which would fully include both flammable liquids like petroleum and also corrosive acids or bases, each of which fits the Fire/Water concept for different reasons. I recently learned that the word “volatile” doesn’t mean what I thought it was, so I’m even more hard up for appropriate descriptors of this Element than I was; currently my placeholder term is “petrol”, which has an appropriately fantastic sound, but entirely fails to describe the acid/alkali half of the element. As far as I can tell, the only actual commonality between inflammables and caustics is that both contain highly unstable hydrogen-oxygen molecule groups, so I’ve strongly debated giving the element a name like “Hydroxyl”, despite this being about as un-Fantasy as you can get…because the only thing worse than being un-Fantasy would be un-Element, and IMO “acid” qualifies for that issue. So for now I’m accepting “petrol” as the placeholder name, but this is the second biggest issue I still need to resolve before I’m completely satisfied with this system.

And that’s all the pairs and trios, leaving us with just two elements left. The element of having no Sky, no Stone, no Heat and no Flow is easily conceptualized, although the resulting term doesn’t work in SOTM: Void. (Where it works perfectly, and most of my inspiration for the term, is in Legend of the Five Rings, which uses only five elements in its Japanese-inspired mysticism, based not on the five Chinese elements which would replace Air with Wood and Metal, but rather in Miyamoto Musashi’s slight expansion upon what were either directly or coincidentally the same four elements which the Greeks talked about.) A much trickier question is what you get when you combine all four elements, other than “everything”, since in theory most of the universe consists not of Elementals of any kind, but rather of normal substances which contain all four elements in roughly equal quantities, so it’s hard to conceptualize an Element which is not a normal substance but still has all the parts of Creation within itself. Spirit is one of the more obvious candidates, but I’ve already used it elsewhere, and so I had to make up an only-kinda-different answer, which I’m moderately proud of, but which is also the single biggest gap in my theory at this point (the various other issues that still remain, apart from a proper name for Chemnox’s element, are minor enough that I’ve given up fighting about them). This solution was to call this final element “Maya”, a term lifted from Hindu philosophy, and to say that this element is the Grand Illusion which permeates the entire cosmos, preventing the truth of reality from being accurately understood. A mage who commands the Maya element is by definition an illusionist, or what the SCP Foundation calls a “reality bender”; their powers would be similar to what Thanos does with the Reality Stone in Infinity War, altering the appearance of things in scientifically impossible ways, but leaving no lasting effects once the illusion is broken.

There, that’s my entire element system as it currently stands, and I don’t see it getting a lot better without losing the aspects which I consider most essential to my own satisfaction with it.

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Okay, you definitely should read some Brandon Sanderson, and honestly the entry point for you might be to go right to the appendix in the back of The Way of Kings before you even start the story.

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Forgot to mention that the chemicals type element also covers plastics, rubber, wax, and similar substances that are otherwise hard to classify, but either are or resemble polymers and petroleum derivatives. All of these fall under the same category as flammable liquids like gasoline and actual oil, though I fail at presenting a rationale for this fact (especially one that excludes natural gas while somehow including acid).

Let’s not forget the Pokemon-inspired Codex Alera by Jim Butcher (no, really, he was given a dare to use bad ideas to write a good story, and that was one of them). There, there are elemental “furies,” but the usual “Earth” stuff is divided three ways into Earth (stone and dirt), Metal, and Wood (plants). Each fury type also gives the users certain passive boosts, or is useful for certain things. Like Earth and fire crafters influence emotions, water has healing and shapeshifting, air can fly, etc.

Another split is in Exalted, where there are five elemental “poles” that define the extent of Creation (the local world… the rest of the universe is the chaotic Wyld): Fire, Earth, Air, Water, and Wood. The Earth pole is the center, and as you get further from it, the element takes over and you don’t really see anything else beyond. Fire is a volcanic wasteland, air is a baren tundra, wood an impassible forest, and water an endless ocean.

In my own fantasy world (not a homebrew setting, this is for a novel), I have magical abilities that follow certain themes, and one category is “Primal” aspects, which are the fundamental forces, or major elements. So some have Earth and Fire powers, another Metal… but also things like Storms, Blizzards, and the like. I also don’t really get metaphysical with planes of elements or whatever. In fact, all the various aspects are named so by people, and there are cases of misinterpretation.

Yeah, I’m familiar with things like Exalted, but a five-element system is far too simplistic for me. It’s like how I feel about things like the Zodiac…“you’re seriously trying to tell me there are only 12 different types of people in the world?” Frankly even at 16 I don’t feel like you have enough to meaningfully categorize everything; it’s only acceptable to me because, in addition to the elements, you also have things like the alignment grid and the energy planes, so it’s more like 16 times 16 options, and that feels a lot more adequate to populating a world that’s rich enough to be interesting.

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Well, at that point, you could just start from the periodic table of elements…

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Scientists will speciate animals that are extremely similar, even while they will insist upon lumping wildly different things together under a collective heading that means nothing to anyone else (see the whole “tomatoes are fruits but raspberries aren’t berries” nonsense). This is why my approach isn’t actually scientific, even though it’s very contrary to the approach to magic that many fictionalists take (what my favorite youtuber likes to call “confetti MAGIC!!!”, as opposed to the “hard science Clarke’s Law” approach he prefers to take in his science-fantasy theorycrafting about Star Trek and the Square/Enix game franchises).

I want the categories to make as much intuitive sense as possible, without anything being true only for technical reasons, but without going all the way into “anyone can do anything if they just believe hard enough” kinds of tropes, which I despise. I don’t like magic to just be genie wish-granting, where the only limit is how much your karma meter wants to tempt fate; I like the idea of esoteric secrets that follow a logic all their own, which is totally consistent with itself, but so fundamentally alien to human understanding that it seems entirely random and nonsensical unless you REALLY pay attention, and start to notice hidden patterns which you know are so big that you’ll never see them completely, but you can hazard an educated guess as to their overall shape.

The periodic table is going too far. The difference between americium and europium is never going to be even perceptible, let alone relevant, to anyone who doesn’t own a particle accelerator with an attached bubble chamber (and frankly I remain unconvinced that this technology even does what the physicists claim it does; how would anyone who doesn’t have a trillion dollars be capable of double-checking their work and calling BS if they had just made it all up, let alone made a fundamental error deep in their calculations where nobody would ever notice it, not until after fifty years of bad science had been built up atop their false assumptions?). Those two aren’t “elements” in any meaningful sense; they’re just subsets of the Unstable Artificial Substances subset of the Radioactive Substances subset of the Metal element. But Radiation could in theory be an element unto itself, if you could come up with enough radioactive substances that aren’t metals (offhand I can only think of Radium gas, which by itself isn’t enough to disqualify Radiation from being entirely a subset of Metal, though even one more such substance would make me consider it).

Naturally, the most nearly-scientific of the elements, which is the big acid + rubber + wax + petroleum weirdness, is going to be the hardest to pin down precisely, because of the inherent paradox in its nature. And its exact opposite, the purely symbolic Time/Glass element, is likewise elusive. In a weird way that probably only makes sense to me, it’s perfectly fitting, but I still feel like I could do better in terms of explaining it, to myself as well as to others.

This sounds like a gross mischaracterization of the process of particle physics research and how results get reported. I assume this is the result of unfamiliarity. But sweeping the body of work and method of investigation of thousands of scientists and engineers over the last 120 years, all checking each other and building on their work, under the word “assumption” is quite a leap to make. In the broad sense there exists no reason to think that any of the confirmed elements on the periodic table aren’t real.

Bringing this back to topic, you make a good point that the distinctions between the bottom-row elements of the table aren’t meaningful to everyday life. To make a periodic-table-based magic system, I’d build off of just the top few rows, using analogies like water->hydrogen, fire->oxygen, metal->iron, air->nitrogen, wood->carbon, and so on.

Which brings me to…

I once had a fascinating conversation with a sci-fi author about the difference between sci-fi and fantasy and what makes a particular story fantasy vs. just fiction that takes place in medieval or ancient times. He reacted a little bit against the construction of magic systems – I don’t 100% remember, but he may have used a term like “alternative science” or “alternative natural philosophy” (in analogy to “alternative history”) to capture the systems where you have defined ingredients that, when you apply a defined process, generate predictable results. He postulated that what really makes a story “fantasy” is that it has fantastical elements that really cannot be explained, with the example of Lord of the Rings where you never really know what the Ring does that’s so evil, or what exactly Gandalf does to the Balrog to defeat it. I’m not saying I agree with him, just an interesting bit of food for thought.

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That is an interesting perspective, but I completely disagree. To point at the LOTR example, I think that all six Peter Jackson movies do a very good job of portraying exactly what effects are produced either directly by the One Ring itself, by Sauron’s power imbued into the One Ring and thus influencing its wearer and surroundings without Sauron being aware or directly acting, and by Sauron’s power in general both with and without his direct attention. The portrayal seems extremely consistent and I could talk about it at length, though most of the observations I would make aren’t originally mine, just paraphrasings of things that the YouTuber I keep referencing has talked about (he maintains that the LOTR trilogy are some of the greatest movies of all time, which I don’t quite agree with, but his deep analysis of the work is good enough that I’ve felt no need to add to it).

To me the distinction between Science Fiction and Fantasy lies in the fact that they serve totally different narrative purposes. Science Fiction exists to answer one question in almost all cases: “What If”. You add one or more very specific changes to reality as we know it, assume anything that hasn’t been mentioned as changing still applies as it would IRL, and try to logically extrapolate what would happen. What would humans, exactly as they exist in our world, do if they…gained space flight? created the technology to teleport? made contact with an alien race? discovered a subrace with strange powers living among them? It’s all meant to possess considerable verisimilitude and to seem consistent with how the world we live in operates. It’s admittedly a bit No True Scotsmanny of me, but I’d say that most of the works of science fiction that deviate more than a little from this rubric shouldn’t really be considered science fiction at all (an obvious example being Star Wars, and I’m hardly the only person to posit that this is more like a fantasy story).

Fantasy, IMO, is a genre whose stories are NOT meant to reflect reality at all; instead, they are to reflect our feelings, our imaginations, our religious beliefs, and other things that we perceive mentally but cannot measure with technological instruments or scientific methods. Put simply, the existence of concepts like “true love” or “universal harmony” or 'the feminine mystique" are not FACTS; they are aspects of the nebulous inner world of humanity. We want to believe these things exist, but they cannot be demonstrated conclusively, documented, or reproduced at will. So fantasy stories are about assuming the truth of such things, and then asking WHY we are the way we are, what it is about these concepts that make them so eternally resonant and appealing to us. Fantasy stories feature a lot of princesses because the majority of women (and a fair number of men) grow up WANTING to be princesses; they feature stalwart knights and noble kings and dread conquering warlords because the more masculine inclinations within the audience desire such expressions of power, used either for evil or against it. These stories speak to the aspect within ourselves that has never evolved past the caveman’s terror of darkness and the unknown; they are filled with monsters we can’t possibly destroy or even comprehend, but also feature miraculous salvations from those same dangers, with both sides playing into the part of us that finds the world too vast and confusing to even try comprehending and mastering it.

i will further add that I regard both horror and superheroics as being distinct genres in and of themselves, which relate to sci-fi and fantasy the same way East and West relate to North and South, both being able to exist indendently of the first pair or in conjunction with either half of it. Horror exists to scare us, and thus whether it’s fantasy or sci-fi depends on whether we’re more scared by a world that follows no consistent rules (fantastic horror, eg ghost stories and demonic possession) or by a world whose rules appear to consistently spell the inevitability of our destruction (sci-fi horror, eg the Lovecraft mythos or the movie Alien). Likewise, superhero stories exist either to be a power fantasy, if you identify with the superhero, or they’re about the idea that you should hope to be saved even when the danger seems insurmountable (a direct defiance of the horror genre, and thus the near-impossibility of writing truly scary stories in a world where superheroes exist). Again, both of these goals are compatible either with the “what if” approach of sci-fi or the “inner mysteries” approach of classic fantasy.

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(Apologies for taking so long to reply to this; things’ve been busy.)

@The_Justifier, okay, so, just as a clarification, the four Essences are Heat, Flow, Sky, and Stone, but then the four Elements that each consist of mostly one Essence are Fire, Water, Air, and Earth?

I like how Spirit and Flesh are sorta opposites, as are Sand and Cold.

I agree that Petrol does sound moderately fantastical to us Yankees, but I imagine that to most Britons it sounds about as fantastic as gasoline does to us, as that’s what the same stuff is called on that side of the pond. Of course, this may not be of any concern for you. You could consider naming this Element simply Chemical, despite the fact that minerals, water, and a whole lot of other stuff are technically considered chemicals by modern science.

Question: What can a Void Elementalist really do? Right now I’m assuming vacuum manipulation?

So, are the changes performed by a Maya Elementalist wholly illusory or do they have substance? Can they only modify appearances and perceptions, or actually physically warp reality? If the latter, I like how Maya works; it is rather powerful by virtue of being able to manipulate any substance or material, but its weakness is that the changes are not lasting. (Presumably changes made by other Elements do persist?)

Hmm, just out of curiosity, what about lava? What would that be covered by?

Also, does your system require Elemental Baggage? In other words, does an Elementalist need some of their Element present to manipulate it, or can they materialise it from nothing?

Overall, your system’s pretty nifty. I might potentially incorporate some of it into a setting some day, if that would be okay with you?

Well, D&D only has nine different Alignments, but I suppose that morality is distinct from personality.

I definitely see what you’re saying. Elemental magic explains how people intuitive think the world should be organised, not how it actually is. A large part of it is also Willing Suspension of Disbelief and Rule of Cool; Fire Mages and Wood Mages are a lot more rad than Boron Mages and Tin Mages. The challenge, though, can be balancing Rule of Cool with consistency and logic.

The idea of a science-based magic system (I know, that is an utterly oxymoronic, contradictory paradox) intrigues me. According to modern science, there’re four States of Matter: Solid, Liquid, Gas, and Plasma, but there are also four Fundamental Forces: Gravity, Electromagnetism, and the Weak and Strong Nuclear Forces. There’s also the Periodic Table as @Trajector mentoned, as well as Space and Time.

So, there could be Liquid Mages who have power over any liquid, Gas Mages who can manipulate any vapour, but Solid Mages might be too broad? There could be Mineral Mages that control stone, but also Metal Mages? I dunno. Based on carbon, there could be Life Mages?

There are also the different varieties of energy; so there could be Light Mages, Heat Mages, Kinetic Mages, and Radiation Mages, but I have no idea what Potential Energy Mages or Chemical Energy Mages would do. Wait, but Light is technically a form of electromagnetic Radiation…

Going off of the Fundamental Forces, there’d be Gravity Mages and…Electromagnetic Mages? I suppose they’d be able to manipulate any form of electromagnetic radiation, which would include light, radio waves, gamma rays, and X-rays, as well as electricity and magnetism, I think?

Okay, well, that was rather messy, and as I have only an admittedly amateur level of scientific knowledge, I’ve no clue how scientifically accurate any of it was.

Correct. I’m not super happy with the essence names, but they’re a necessary evil for the sake of clarity.

That’s the idea. I even like the idea that Petrol is the most “scientific” element, while Glass is the least so.

Absolutely not. I don’t go in for the “Bob, Lord of Evil” approach; names don’t have to be overwrought and exotic-sounding, but they have to sound neat, and names of elements have to sound deserving of their status as one of the fundamental building blocks of the cosmos. It’s a hard balance to get right, but easy to spot when it’s done wrong.

The elements are generally more symbolic than that; you don’t necessarily control the substance itself, but rather your magics are patterned in a way that reflects the essential nature of the thing. In the case of Void, I lean heavily on the interpretation used in Legend of the Five Rings, where Void is the element of detachment and transcendence; it gives a lot of monastic-feeling abilities, like seeing through illusions to detect the true nature of Nothingness within all things (particularly fitting as the opposite of Maya). Escaping the bounds of space and time is also appropriate, as are a few other abilities…it’s less about what you can do than about how you do it. A fire mage who wants to destroy a tree burns it to ash, an Air mage blows it over, an Earth mage strikes it with a physical blow that smashes it to kindling, and a Water mage causes the water inside the capillaries within the wood to expand and burst the vessels until the log disintegrates. But a Void mage is completely powerless to do anything to it, unless he’s of a sufficiently high level that he’s fully surpassed the illusion of existence…at which point he simply closes his eyes, makes a hand gesture, and the tree vanishes as though it never existed (which, the mage then explains, it never did).

Generally speaking yeah, temporary physical alterations that are seemingly completely real, but only as long as they are maintained. It’s going to vary wildly by circumstances, but in general both Void and Maya are the most difficult to master and most powerful once mastered, since by their nature they encompass everything.

Lava is mostly just Fire-elemental for any practical purpose; when it cools off it becomes Earth, but by that point it’s not Fire anymore, and I don’t agree with it being both of them at any time. Ooze and Smoke are also unworthy of being full Elements IMO; they can have an Elemental of them as one specific type of creature, but they don’t get an entire Elemental Plane, not even a Para- or Quasi- one. Planes don’t need to be quite as big or diverse as planets, but they should be close; they can’t just be one simple thing endlessly repeated. For an example of what I do with the elemental planes, my version of the Water plane is mostly just an endless ocean, but it very specifically has no air above its surface; there are pockets of air within the water, but they don’t come from above, instead they are either generated by native creatures such as the Marids, or they enter the plane the same way all foreign substances do, on massive blocks of crystalline mineral substances known as Granoliths, which appear in the airless void above the waves and then sink steadily, slowly dissolving and releasing salt or minerals or frozen air which permeate the water around them. The native water Elementals pitch a fit if anyone from another plane brings a bunch of Air or Earth into the plane and creates a colony for habitation by non-Water beings…but they apparently don’t mind the Granoliths for whatever reason. My version of Fire and Earth are similarly elaborate, while my Air plane is admittedly lifted almost-unchanged from a Larry Niven book about an ex-planet whose atmosphere remained in orbit around the star after the planet broke up.

No. That system is dumb; if you can’t create fire from nothing, then you can’t turn a Zippo lighter into a blowtorch, as that absolutely would be creating more fire than you had. D&D mages generally have the ability to pull limitless amounts of substance from the appropriate Elemental Plane for whatever spells they want to cast, and that remains true in my system, if not more so because there are more planes to choose from.

Knock yourself out, it’s not like my creative career is going anywhere…

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@OddballPaladin you say your name in your letters page questions are you the British Author born in 1967?

if not (or if you are) here is my celebrity name alike that makes me use my middle name on Facebook Christopher Vogler - Wikipedia

I am not. I am also not related to the early 1900s American President, the Beach Boys, or the sporting goods company, but I wish I had a share of THAT pile of cash. :smiley:

Intriguing. What are some other categories besides Primal, if you’re willing to share?

Yeah, I get what you’re saying. Chemical is rather mundane and clinical sounding. And I agree that big, important things like The Elements or the main Villain of a story should have names with appropriate gravitas, coolness, and/or majesty. However, I must admit that I have had some instances of the Aerith and Bob Trope in RPG campaigns I’ve run, mainly for the humour, which I think is fine, as long as the characters aren’t too major (unless it’s a coplete comedy). For instance, in one D&D game, I had a duo of NPC bounty hunters: a Dragonborn named Balasar and an Elf named Marv. In that same game, I also had a small criminal gang that consisted of an Elf named Sariel Galanodel, a Shadow Elf named Darkarius (yes, that’s an intentionally edgelord name), an Ogre named Steven, and a Kobold named Wicked Reynolds.

Neat, that does make sense. It also kinda mirrors Spirit Island, in which Elements have conceptual association that go beyond just physical phenomena or substances. For instance, Fire is associated with passion and destruction, Sun with constancy and command, Moon with transformation and change, Air with trickery, travel, and distance, Earth with dependability and resilience, Plant with growth and proliferation, etc. etc. So a power associated with teh Sun Element might not actually have anything to do with heat or light, but might instead be about constancy and/command.

Cool! I like that.

Yeah, I always thought that the generic D&D Plane of Water was kinda a cop-out, what with having a bunch of islands and stuff at its surface for the convenience of those lousy air-breathers.

Yeah, those are both excellent points. Plus, simply snapping one’s fingers and levitating a chair a few metres is just as much a violation of the Law of Conservation of Mass and Energy as making a chair out of nothing is.

Okay, @The_Justifier, so you’ve said that you created this system for D&D, right? I’m assuming that you’ve also written the rules for its use in games? If so, how did you handle that? Did you simply categorise existing spells and abilities and stuff into the Elements, or did you have to create a whole bunch of new spells and abilities from scratch? Also, what about character classes? Did you give existing spellcasting classes access to these Elemental magicks, or make whole new classes (or feats, or Prestige classes) for characters to access The Power of the Elements?

Of course, it’s entirely possible that you’ve just made all the lore for this stuff, without touching the rules-side very much or at all. I’d certainly understand that, as I’ve done similar things. (It can be especially difficult to motivate oneself to make rules if one doesn’t even have players available…)

Yeah, I have not sat down to do all the work. I hope to, someday, but I keep getting distracted by the Twin Obscenities of Blasphemous Ruination, whose names are Rent and Food…

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“Living” for animals and assorted fantastical creatures, which provide passive buffs, if you will (the MC has “Bear” marks which make her super-strong), and “Paragon” for more role-based stuff (the MC, again, also has “Watchman” marks, one of which lets her do a sort of sonar for interior spaces - but not exterior - and one on her arm that lets her project forcefields). But I also have as part of the magic system write-up that these are mostly speculative designations, and there are a few that don’t quite fit into one category or another.

Spent two months designing this, and it’s only gotten more refined over the years since the first draft. The book itself just got a whole rewrite a year ago, and I’m workshopping the revised stuff through my writing group.

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