Expatriette Fix?

Okay, maybe not a fix, but an improvement? I realize that she has a lot of great and fun cards to play in her deck (Hello, Unload. Hello, Hairtrigger) but I find that in practice, it is nearly impossible to find those cards. Can anyone suggest House Rules to improve her deck searching/drawing capabilities?

There's been a lot of discussion on some other threads regarding house rules or alternate powers for Expatriette (like this one https://greaterthangames.com/forum/topic/expatriette-variants-2801)

One in particular that I like but haven't had a chance to playtest enough is to give her a variation on Tempest's promo card. 

Power: Destroy one gun. If you do, draw 3 cards. 

I think something like that would help her get to the good cards without overpowering her too much... but I think this might work better as a card in her deck rather than her base power since it would work very nicely with her Load power. 

 

I guess the easiest solution would be simply to pair her with a hero that facilitates card draw.  Team Leader Tachyon (base power), Nightmist (Enlightenment), and Visionary (base power) all make good partners for Expatriette, as does Legacy (Bolster Allies) in addition to his base buffs and damage redirection.  Any of these, combined with Speed Loading, will keep Expatriette well-stashed with ammo all game long.

Expatriette has high hp, can deal tons of damage to both single and multiple targets, can reduce damage, and eliminate ongoings/environments.  She can even outright negate high-damage hits with Flak Jacket.  She's got to have a weakness somewhere, and that's her card draw.  Fixing that in her deck makes her overpowered.  

How does this sound?:

 

Power: Play a card. Draw a card.

 

...mind you, I only got that off the top of my head, but what do you guys think?

That power would give insane card advantage.

 

To put it another way: it's bunker's exact same power: only way better.

 

The sad truth is that just because a character isn't always the most fun to play doesn't mean the character isn't effective, it just means that maybe the character isn't for you

Yeah, crazy, right?  Go see what Visionary, Horus Ra, Team Leader Tachyon, Redeemer Fanatic, and Eternal Haka have to say about it.

Seriously, though, that power's probably pretty strong.  Try it out and let us know if it should be added to the lists of things people are using to try to improve a hero they find occasionally lacking.

I'm not familiar with any of the promo characters to be honest so i have no clue what they do… but Visionary is very differnt: draw 2 discard 1 is not in the same league as play an additional card and then replace it

he's referring to bunker's base power.   The powers of all the characters he listed are "bunkers exact same power, only way better".    

I think the answer to Expatriette's low card draw shouldn't be to have a hero "babysit" her for card accelleration.  What if I wanted to play Expat, Fixer, and Ra in a team?  When Visionary Enlightens Tachyon, it isn't a necessity, it's an awesome benefit to the two of them being together in a team.  With Expat, I never feel like accellerated card draw makes her "better".  It just feels like I'm trying to play catch up with other players who have decks that can actually function on their own and benefit the team as a whole because of it.

 

It's not a matter of babysitting, I don't feel--it's a matter of working as a team.  There's nothing saying Visionary has to give Expatriette that card draw every turn or that' she can be the only recipient of buffs:  it's just that she can benefit from the prescence of numerous other heroes, all of whom have card drawing as a function of either some common cards in their deck or a base power.  And, those heroes are plentiful enough in number as to be represented in some way in nearly every game.

I guess I look at it this way--we don't see threads complaining about Argent Adept saying, "oh, man, I can't deal any damage with him.  We need to fix him!"  It's not his schtick.  It's not his focus.  He buffs, he debuffs, and he makes everyone else better.  Given the example of Fixer/Ra/Expatriette, yeah, it might be a fun game.  But, you're also an experienced fellow.  You know that these three are primarily damage-dealing heroes with limited (if any!) control or buff elements.  When mowing down minions, they'll excel.  When faced with complex ongoings or the like, they'll suffer.  That doesn't make them bad heroes or underpowered--they just can't (and shouldn't!) be able to do every role at any given time.  They aren't meant to do so, just as AA isn't meant to be pumping off absurd amounts of damage.

I think the feeling of Expatriette's lack of cards comes from the fact that she can literally play her hand twice as fast as any other character.  She runs out of cards quickly, which can lead to less options in hand and a sense of the "inevitable" on the part of the player.  When youve only got one card in hand, you feel constrained, compared to Tempest or Nightmist, who have scads of cards in hand.   What's The Punisher's answer to a problem?  Shoot it.  Same goes for his homage in Expatriette.  She gets a few guns out, she starts blasting away.  Speed Loading adds some versatility, sure, and Hairtrigger is an awesome auto-damage, but they're not really necessary to make her function.  Once she has a gun or two, ammo gets fed in and damage comes out.  She doesn't need a huge hand to load and fire a tactical shotgun each round.  Options make her better, yes, but that's the case across the board.  But, again, what's the gun-toting vigilante's solution going to be in character?  Shooting!

Given the "alternate power" suggested above--play 1, draw 1--I think I've come to acknowledge an overarching philosophy in the game so far.  Generally speaking, any given power upholds the current "status quo".  You deal damage, you heal hp, you look at the villain deck, etc.  these are all things you can do that generally don't affect the direct future of your character (note:  direct.  Using Infrared Eyepiece, for example, keeps your hero indirectly safe from that Devastating Aurora by exchanging it for some other, less harmful negative, but it doesn't give you hp back, give you new power options, or defend you from an attack).  Further, generally speaking, card draw represents potential energy.  Theses are things you CAN do, things you COULD put into play.  However, like a battery, these things have little meaning for most heroes until they are actually put into play.  

That act of playing a card--turning the stored energy of a card into actuality--represents a fundamental shift greater than simply drawing or using powers.      It's "worth more" in many ways, because that energy is no longer potential:  it exists on the table as hp dealt, equipment/ongoings in play, or as staus effects inflicted.

there has to be some trade off for Expatriette's kinetic ability to throw cards down and, as is the case in her powers, that kinetic frenzy comes at the cost of a relatively lower "potential charge".  Increasing her potential makes her overpowered.

I suppose I don't understand why a Punisher-esque character would have to settle for a pistol when a shotgun is a necessary tool for the job.  I feel that Chrono Ranger is a prime example of a better constructed Expatriette AND Mister Fixer all in one.  He deals a lot of small damage (Mister Fixer's Strike power and Charge One-Shot) that he modifies (Bounties instead of Styles/Tools) with an array of firearms (Expat's Guns) that he can access if necessary ("Just Doin' My Job"/Eye on the Prize/"Kill on Sight" into a Displaced Armory).

Expatriette has diversity in her cards.  AoE, massive damage, multiple targets, and she can change her damage type, increase her damage, or reduce damage the opponent deals with her Ammo.  But being able to use those cards is tied heavily into actually drawing them.  Who cares if Argent Adept can't deal damage?  He can effectively draw/search for his Instruments/Ongoings to work.  Pretty much every other Hero has cards that allow for actually drawing more cards.  I don't quite understand why none of Expatriette's cards have a "You may draw a card" option on them.  It just seems like she's being denied a basic benefit of being a player-controlled character.

 I agree with most of what you said, PlatinumWarlock, but I also agree with Reckless.   Where to begin...   Lets start with a Pre-ST mentality.

 

In Rook City, when Expatriette first hit the field, card draw was sort of at a premium.   It was kind of rare that an ally would let you draw a card out of turn,  and it was special.  Tachyon could do it with fleet of foot (no team leader tach yet!)  and Visionary could do it with Enlighten.  Legacy had Bolster Allies.  That was about it.  A scattering of one-shots in a couple hereos decks, and one power (Enlighten) whose ally-helping potential at the time made it one of the best powers in the game.      It is in this world that Expatirette suffers the most,   where it is by far the hardest to give her the card drawing she needs,   hardest to work as a team as you put it Platinum, because there are so few members of any potential team that can provide the service she requires.   Even they cant usually provide her with card draw in the amount that she needs it.

But when Relics came out, we saw the addition of Argent Adept and Nightmist.   Both of these heroes can allow other players to draw cards,  and in the case of AA,  it's sort of a large part of his schick to do so.    With ST we now have Team Leader Tachyon, OmnitronX, and Scholar, all of which can help others draw cards.    I'm listing X, who I suppose doesnt technically let others draw cards, but Timeshift on Expatriette is pretty much as good or better, so I'm including it.   And the fact that you can do that every turn (as well as TLTach) is huge. 

What I'm saying is that bit by bit, Expatriette is being buffed indirectly by adding heroes with abilities that are card-drawing related.  Now in ST, Expatriette's team is able to help her out more than ever before.   You can still pick a team that doesn't provide any card draw,  but if you were to select at complete random,  the chances that you will do so are now much less.

 

However,  let's talk about what Expatriette *does*.   You mentioned that card drawing isnt really her thing.   I can respect that,  but what *is* her thing, exactly?   Well,   the only real answer I can make is that her thing is dealing damage.    But in my experience there are many heroes that do her thing much better than she does.  Tempest, Wraith and Ra belt out more damage that Expatriette usually does, and the case of Wraith is particularly damning because Wraith has so much utility that Expatriette can't match.  

So really, what we're looking for is a way to let Expatriette deal more damage so that she'll be on par with these other "damage-dealer" type heroes.   And the solution that most people give is "allow her more card draw"  so that it's easier to ensure she always has the right tools for the job. 

 

-awp

 

I can respect the sentiment, but again, I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that Expatriette tends to lay down her hand at the start and never really hold more than 2-3 cards at a time, simply because she burns through them so fast.  In terms of drawing cards, let's keep in mind:  she has 6 cards whose sole purpose is to put equipment into play--3 Arsenal Access, and 3 Quick Draw--as well as 2 Speed Loadings, which lets your trash serve an an ammo dump.  That's fully 1/5 of her cards.  How much more are we planning to devote to this aspect of her?

A potential suggestion I might offer is the lowly Submachine Gun.  It tends to be overlooked in favor of its beefier cousin, the Assault Rifle, as there usually just aren't enough targets to justify the reduction in damage.  Plus, any villain DR negates the SMG's attack, making it less likely to be played.

Why not alter the SMG's power "Deal 1 projectile damage to all non-hero targets.  Draw a card."?  It beefs up what's arguably the weakest weapon in her deck, reinforces her overall theme (Answer to everything = more shooting!), and provides an option comparable to Ra's Living Conflagration.  Plus, it raises one of those "Interesting Choices" that tend to come up in games like this:  do you deal less damage this turn to open up more potential options for later, or do you go for the damage now?  Much like Living Conflagration, this becomes more potent with each additional buff or ammo card, but the fundamental choice remains the same:  damage or cards-in-hand?

Alternatively, you could always link the "Draw a card" addendum to one of Expatriette's weaker ammo cards--Incindiary Rounds or Shock Rounds.  Incindiary Rounds gets overshadowed by Hollow Points, while Shock Rounds' global damage tends to get nerfed by DR.  Perhaps add a line, "Draw 1 card for each target that takes at least 1 damage from Shock Rounds."  This way, it encourages a player to use Shock Rounds when there are a lot of baddies around--again, we have that choice emerging:  do you kill them outright with the Hollow Points and free up allies to do other things, or do you go for the big card draw with Shock Rounds and hope that your allies can take out the now-weakened mooks?"  That fits Shock Rounds' overall scheme (deal a little bit of damage to lots of targets) and provides a reward for players using it "correctly".

I think I tend to get wary about changing a Hero's base power, because of how drastic a difference a change it can make.  Just look at Absolute Zero, compared to his Elemental Wrath version--same cards, same relative hp, but they both play drastically differently, and have a much different overall schtick.  Losing his self-healing ability really hurts WrathAZ, but the ability to deal damage without equipment or ongoings in play?  Yeah, that changes the game.  Same goes for Bunker--his base version really suffers from an inability to deal with ongoings, but his Engine of War variant trades that weakness for Expatriette's:  card draw.    Adding to Expatriette's raw ability without subtracting something pushes her most noted weakness into being a strength, which to me defeats her design intent.

I’ve always been a defender of expat just as she is. I find that even if I have to spend the first turn drawing cards and only drawing, she still can be brutally effective. I’ve often found myself using overload not for the massive hit but in order to play a card and use a gun, for getting both hair trigger and an ammo out or 2 ammo on pride or pred. I feel that her ability to effectively play 3 cards every 2 turns and still deal a good chunk of damage if handled right is well worth it. I feel that we consider most heroes in the confines of a single turn - what’s my best action for this turn - when expat needs to be thought of across multiple turns

I agree with this statement whole heartedly.  Although card draw would help I really feel that she is severly lacking in good one-shots for a damage dealer.  With the exception of an RPG or Hairtrigger she only damages once on her turn (possibly buffed). If you look at Ra in comparison he damages through his power every turn AND through his card play the majority of turns.  As a result he has a much higher damage output.  So what if Expat can does slightly more damage on a single attach, she makes roughly half of the attacks. 

 

Compare to Wraith as you said, Wraith has a fairly comparable card for everything Expat has (except maybe sub machine gun), and doesn't have much for attacking one-shots, but she does have a utility belt to again let her attack almost twice as often.  If you could lower the damage of everything Expat does by one point but get two attacks a turn would you do it?  Hell yeah!  And to be fair actually Wraiths attacks do more damage if you have a targeting computer and no hollow points.  If hollow points were permanent the statement would be more accurate.  She might need an extra card or two, but between Impromptu Invention and Trust Fund she is actually MORE likely to be set up.

 

End result Expat can be effective, but she can't come close to Ra or Wraith.  I suspect she does around 2/3 to 3/4 the damage of either of those characters (unless Wraith chooses to pass on damage regularly to use the eye piece or something like that).

Maybe I'm not seeing it right, but she only has so many Unloads so if she is playing 3 cards every 2 turns isn't she taking complete turns without dealing damage?  Doesn't that just make her fall farther behind the other damage dealers?

Okay, so I tried out the power I suggested, and you guys are right: wayyyy too strong. The other heroes weren't even set up yet, and Exp was able to completely murder most of the relics Apostate was able to crap out.

 

I think next I'll try out PlatinumWarlock's suggestion about the SMG... it seems reasonable :)

I do mean skipping a turn of damage to play 2 cards. If you compare her to the likes of Ra and wraith then yes she’s falling behind without a doubt. tho everyone falls behind ra. I’ve seen him have +9 damage. only wraith come close to being able to match that.

But if you take the average damage that say… nightmist or abzero does, she’s right there with them, even if you do take the occasional turn to play two cards. Yes ab0 and nightmist have more spike damage and are able to throw out more memorable bursts (face it we remember the 20+ hp hits and not the 10 rounds of 2 dmg) but she is, once she gets just one gun in play, far more consistent. she sets up faster than most damage heroes really only needing two cards and then is just a consistent source of reliable steady damage.

sure her turns aren’t as interesting as adept or scholar or nightmist. she does far less on each turn. and compared to a lot of heroes her playstyle is simplistic. that can certainly make her less fun for a lot of people. But when you step back and remove all those opinions from it and look at just straight damage, she is actually fairly consistent and does a good chunk. she’s no ra or tempest, but why should all “damage” heroes do that much damage?

plus as for babysitting… It’s a team game. coop . I hate the thought that everyone has to pull equal weight. that unless you are doing 23.2 dps you aren’t worth having along. like Wow damage meters, judging by an impartial value in a situation where you just want to enjoy yourself is a fallacy. why does one have to ‘fix’ expat? (or Mr fixer) If they are not your cup of tea its not like there are not a ton of other choices . to play. not every hero has to be the cream of the crop. why fix? Why not accept them for whom thy are?

now alternative powers for an different game play (ala promo) is different. And I got one for you to try for expat.

power: hold out pistol. expatriette does one target 0 projectile damage. This counts as a gun. (and hence you can play ammo too it)

If Wraith uses Throwing Knives, Razor Ordinance, and Utility Belt (to activate both in the same turn), she needs 3 pieces of equipment out to deal 6 overall damage (3 to one target, 3 additonal spread around 3 targets).

Expatriette deals the same amount of damage (6 points) with one piece of equipment:  Assault Rifle (2 damage to 3 targets).

Admittedly, Wraith has access to what may be the single best solo buff card in the game–her MicroTargeting Computer.  There's no other card that comes close to offering the same raw damage without drawbacks.  The only thing even close is Ra's Solar Flare, which deals him damage every round, unless you manage to pull off the highly unlikely Imbued Fire/Flesh of the Sun God/Solar Flare combo.  Similarly, Impromptu Invention is probably the best single "get cards out of your deck" card in the game.  It gives you two free plays, a free general draw, and a free equipment pull from your deck.  There's nothing even close to that in any other deck.  I'd dare say that those two cards are overpowered, rather than complain because Expatriette can't keep up.

And, of course, comparing a buffed Wraith to an unbuffed Expatriette is patently unfair.  Of course Wraith would outdamage her.  Wraith with MicroTargeting deals 5 to one target, and 9 spread across three targets (total of 14), while Expatriette's Assault Rifle with Hollow Points deals 4 damage to 3 targets (12 total).  They're pretty close, considering that Expatriette can swap out the use of Hollow Points for broader damage (Shock Rounds) or global damage reduction (Liquid Nitrogen Rounds) .  

I'll readily admit that Ra outdamages Expatriette.  He has a ton more One-Shots that deal damage, which puts his total above hers.  However, he has absolutely no ability to destroy ongoings or environment effects, and his only damage mitigation ability is Flesh of the Sun God, which is highly dependent on damage type.  Expatriette trades that bit of damage for some additional utility and damage mitigation.  Is it a worthy trade-off?  Well, I guess it depends what you want.  

If card draw is the issue–which I'm still convinced is a necessary weakness–I'd suggest trying a variant linked to one of her guns or ammo, like the ones I listed above.  

If the issue is her outright damage output–which I'm still not convinced is an issue at all–consider making her ammo cards more permanent buffs, sticking around until destroyed/replaced.  

I would say its extremely fair because Wraith has the tools to go get that setup and do it early in the game.  I think she is almost as likely to have a targeting computer and a razor ordinance in the first couple turns as Expat is to have the comparable gun.  I guess you could compare a setup Wraith to a set up Expat, but a set up Expat is what hollow points with the shotgun or assault rifle?  It still lacks in the comparison AND only lasts a turn unless you have something to bring the ammo back.

 

I concede that Expat doesn't suffer much from board clearing affects.  I will concede that she is more consistent than an AZ or Bunker.   Although they can both tank.  And the new AZ doesn't need much setup to be as good as Expat so mabey that isn't as easy to concede.  Again damage on both card play and power helps a lot.

I think it is unfair to say "She lacks against pure damage dealers but does as much as Nightmist."  True, but Nightmist can tank, and deck lock, and get rid of environment and ongoings (though Expat can as well, Nightmist cycles so much she is much more likely to have the needed card), and help people draw cards.  I don't think of Nightmist as a pure damage dealer the way I think about Expat.  As a pure damage dealer Expat is subpar, as a utility character, well she has RPG and Liquid Nitro Rounds.  Even the Liquid Nitro Rounds is weak for what it does if you compare it to similar effects.

 

As far as it being a coop game.  Yes absolutely, I am often not the most effective person on the team.  Heros have good games and bad games.  Mostly Expat contributes to any game she is in.  I agree with saying "She is fine" with this mentality. 

These debates make it sound like I really hate her, but I don't.  I do think she is the most underpowered character though and that is a different arguement.  Playing an underpowered hero now and then is no big deal, it even happens unexpectedly if you have bad draw with any hero.  However if you really like her flavor and want to play her a lot it does kind of blow to know you are playing a subpar character on a regular basis.  Maybe thats not big deal, but it explains why people want to make changes.