Fickle Fans: The worst card in the game.

Games Sentinels of the Multiverse
#1

I honestly see nothing this adds to the game except a large dose of luck. There are villain cards that are more powerful, certainly- Citizen Dawn's ongoing and equipment wipe, Baron Blade (VF) and Friction's cards that allow their entire team to play cards, and about half of Iron Legacy's deck come to mind. But Fickle Fans... It just feels like one of those "Well, looks like I rolled a 1, time to roll a new character." or an "Oh look, I got a 20, I win on no merit of my own." moments whenever it comes out (yes, I understand character building can improve or mitigate the implications of criticals, that's not the point of discussion here). The others- while quite annoying- at least feel like something that's part of the natural flow of the game, and can truly be prepared for. But the only way to prepare for Fickle Fans is to be in the losing position... It is a card that REWARDS YOU FOR DOING POORLY, and PUNISHES YOU FOR DOING WELL, and that should NEVER be the case of ANY card. I may dread when one of those heavy hitters comes out of the deck, but at least they don't make me think "well, if I had done worse up until this point, I'd be winning right now".

Now don't get me wrong; overall, I love Wrath of the Cosmos. Both the heroes and both environments are great, and Infinitor and Deadline were both very enjoyable villains to fight. Even Kaargra Warfang's deck seems very unique and fun- aside from the fact that it has two copies of Fickle Fans in there. But those two copies of that card have instantly made her the worst villain for me to play- even moreso than Dark Watch Gloomweaver and Akash'Buta, both of whom I I find drag on because of their high HP, and moreso than the Vegneful Five which I dislike because of all the extra shuffling that's required, but all of which I still enjoyed to some degree. But Kaargra? Kaargra is the first (and hopefully only) villain I can truly say that I dislike fighting against; the two cards are that bad, and I'd be tempted to try simply playing against her with those two cards removed- if it wasn't for the fact that her deck is already so small, and removing any cards would mean she'd have a deck even smaller than the environment deck. I might just try it anyways.

I'm really curious as to what the playtesters and admins thought of this card; am I crazy with my assessment of it? Or is this truly the worst (or at least amongst the worst) cards in the game?

#2

Honestly, I think it fits the name and the theme really well...they are truly fickle fans who shift their favor at a moment's notice and want to see more sport.  I've played a couple of dozen games with Kaargra (both PT and final) and never had an issue with it, it's much less devastating than That Card or some of the other wipes from other villains.  It feels entirely thematic to me

#3

Yeah, I've always found the various "bring back out all the minions you just spent the entire game killing" cards to be far more arbitrary and annoying than this one. As you say, it sounds like either removing those cards from her deck, or maybe just pretending that they're copies of a different card whenever they come up might help keep you having fun.  

#4

We've found Kargra to be the most popular villain from Wrath, in our play group. Fickle Fans can be frustrating, but it's a lot less frustrating than losing our stuff. I think that's one of the reasons I'm so accepting of it: So many times the answer to setting back the heros is do more damage or take away their stuff, but Kargra creates new design space that allows for a more interesting way to surprise the players in game. As cmschex explained, it's impressively thematic and really builds that tension that makes the game so much fun. 

But that's just us - if you don't like it, that's a completely valid response.  :slightly_smiling_face:

#5

First off there are plenty of circumstances where doing poorly enough lets you avoid cost, or gain a positive effect for no cost.

and there are plenty of cards that punish you more when you are doing better.

For example anything that causes you to discard your hand when you have no cards, or a devestating Aurora when you have nothing in play.

Or Technological Singularity, which punishes players for having more equipment.

 

Fickle Fans can be planned for.  I do it frequently.

It also is a big part of the theme of the match, because you can't control the audience, and they frequently turn on the side that is winning.

That is true in any sport where the crowd doesn't have predetermined loyalties.  It adds a lot to the game.

 

Mechanically it gives the game a way to compensate for ideal hero teams, and less than ideal hero teams.  It avoids games where a big start for the villains is just too much to recover from, and games where you get a lead and the villains can't catch up.

It is a very different card than we've seen before, but it is also a different mechanic than other villains.

#6

Theme and flavor is a 10/10

Fickle Fans is just a card you have to gameplan for, just like Dawn's Aura or Omnitrons Singularity or Voss's Deployment. If the card is really swinging your games, then you need a better game plan right? Part of the fun is figuring out the best ways to handle certain situations.

#7

That's not really punishing the player for doing well. The goal of the game isn't to have a bunch of cards in your hand or to have a lot of equipment in play. They can help, yes, but that's not what the goal is (at least, not with any current villains- who knows? Maybe in a future expansion, it could happen). When fighting Kaargra, the very goal is to get those crowd favor points, then this card punishes you for managing that goal.

#8

Manage to make the points closer together until you can manage a huge swing turn and win the game. Every turn you have to think "Ok, what if the fans turn on me after this round? What can I do?" If the answer is "nothing, im screwed", then you might need to rethink your approach to how you gain points and how you allow Kaaraga to gain them.

You wouldn't empty your entire hand of important equipment cards as Waith against Dawn before you see the first Devestate right (even though you are trying to set up a huge barrage)? Same thing applies to Kaaraga

#9

I'm pretty sure the villain is all about causing us lots of annoyances as we fight them.  In this case, it also can have  a bonus if you're losing.

#10

Think of it as a Devastating Aurora that read like this:

If there are no Environment cards in play, play the top card of the Environment deck. If no Environment cards are played this way, destroy all Environment cards.

If there are no Hero Ongoing cards in play, each player may play 1 Ongoing card now. If no Ongoing cards are played this way, destroy all Ongoing cards.

If there are no Equipment cards in play, each player may play 1 Equipment card now. If no Equipment cards are played this way, destroy all Equipment cards.

(Of course, that's WAY too much text for a card.)

#11

And that would actually make me hate Devastating Aurora more.

I probably wouldn't mind Fickle Fans if it was just something like "Add 5 tokens to the Villains Favor pile" or "Remove 5 tokens from the Heroes Favor pile". Sure, it'd still be annoying, but it wouldn't feel like I'm getting punished for doing what I'm supposed to be doing. Or even a Cheering Crowd replacement that just adds two tokens to whichever pile has more (and doesn't remove it from the other pile).

 

On an unrelated note, aren't there cards with more text already? Pretty sure a few of Absolute Zero's cards have more text… Or maybe I'm just thinking about the fact that he causes Catapult Turtle Gambits to happen when you get all of his cards out.


#12

Wait, you'd hate a Devastating Aurora that let you get some bonus if your team happened to have nothing in play?

#13

Fickle fan indeed. 

#14

Yes; I dislike the idea of villain cards that help the player. It just feels… Antithematic (Is that an actual word? Well, spellcheck isn't complaining, so I guess it is.). It's one thing to have hero cards that can hurt the heroes, because these are usually representive of the hero pushing themselves past their bodily limits at the expense of harming themselves, but to have a villain card randomly let the heroes equips some items? That just feels… Odd.

I guess I just don't like the idea of the villain deck helping the heroes. I'm fine with easy and helpful environments (Time Cataclysm is actually probably my favorite environment, and while it might not be the easiest of them, it's definitely easier than most), but the villain deck helping the heroes in any way just seems backward to me. Beyond that, there's still the fact that it feels like it's punishing you for doing well and rewarding you for doing poorly; a flat out attack against the heroes is one thing, but I've always hated "rubber band mechanics" in any sort of game whatsoever (I'm looking at you Mario Kart).

#15

Just you wait until the Christmas themed expansion! Where you must take on Krampus, there is actually a card the repesents Santa joining the action, where he'll allow every player to play a card, yay!

#16

I can see your point, but I don't find myself agreeing. Now if Fickle Fans just flipped the scores then you'd be right, but it is a maximum of a -5/+5 situation and it is very recoverable.

 

If you are curb stomping Kaagra, it's a minor annoyance, obviously you've been getting way more points than that. If the game is tight it swings it, but the swing can be more or less severe depending on the score. I think the key to it is, from the little I've played Kaagra (btw solo play with Kaagra and setback is a little too much to keep track of) you can easily recover a loss of 5 points, and villain points don't matter unless they are 17 or higher.

#17

How do you feel about the Potential Sidekick from Spite's deck?

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#18

I'm okay with the bystanders giving bonuses because you have to work for them- I feel that since they're essentialy weakpoints that you have to decide whether it's better to protect them to gain their bonuses, I don't really mind that. It requires you to divert resources you would otherwise just use to focus on hammering Spite.

This is also why I don't mind the Title Deck giving bonuses: You don't just get them at random, you work for them, and you earn those bonuses by carrying out specified objectives. I dislike Stonejaw because it essentially just goes to the first target that comes out after it does, but the others all have ways you can manipulate them, and try to race for them before they're taken by the villains- and if you choose to ignore them, chances are the villains will get some of them, especially with how quickly Kaargra fields her cards.

 

Regardless, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me. Even though we clearly disagree on this matter, it's really awesome to be able to talk directly to one of the designers of one of my favorite games and actually have a conversation with them about why I feel the way I do about it. To me, that shows that you're listening- even if you don't come to the same conclusions, you are obviously taking the time to get my point of view.

EDIT: As a matter of fact, this conversation has made me decide to go ahead and get Sentinels of the Multiverse on Steam; I was going to wait for a big sale before giving in, but this has made me decide to pick up the game and the first season pass today: http://i.imgur.com/7hVKIf8.png

#19

I actually like the villain cards that help the player, and feel like they can be very thematic. I the bystanders from Spite's deck are ag reat example. Sure,. MOST of the villains we have don't fit that sort of idea, but that doesn't mean its possible. There are plenty of examples of honorable opponents, folks that'd rather have a real fight then a blowout, for example. Oh! Plague Rat can be another example! Sure, infection hurts, but that damage amp is tempting...

 

My only issue with Fickle Fans thus far has been playing advanced mode Kaagra. And even then, my issue was just that so freakin' many were played! Admittedly, she got Chaos Lord early, so it was likely, but it was hard to figure out who was going to win! (it wasn't the good guys, by the by)

#20

Regardless, I'd like to thank you for taking the time to discuss this with me. Even though we clearly disagree on this matter, it's really awesome to be able to talk directly to one of the designers of one of my favorite games and actually have a conversation with them about why I feel the way I do about it. To me, that shows that you're listening- even if you don't come to the same conclusions, you are obviously taking the time to get my point of view.

My pleasure! I actually engaged in this not to be argumentative, but to dig more into what you do like/do not like about those interactions. 

There will certainly be cards from villain decks in the future which can help the heroes, and so I want to be mindful of how such cards are perceived.