Suppose that The Sentinels, Guise, and Malpractice Medico are in a game. Guise uses the power on Medico, and then high-fives the Sentinels, who have Hippocratic Oath out. When he would deal damage, he heals instead, and when he would heal, he deals damage instead. How is this resolved?
It hasn’t come up or anything, I’m just curious.
Guess you’ll find out with the video game release I don’t want to be the one making official notice of the ruling. Also, this can be accomplished in the Celestial Tribunal not jut Guise
Currenlty, I’d say choose one to override the other at the moment.
Read Red Right Hand closer.
When any hero target would regain HP..
Yes, so? Hypocritical Guise/Expert Witness Medico attempts to damage a target and, instead, he's prompted to instead heal a target for the same amount. He tries to heal a hero target and is prompted to instead damage a target for the same amount.
You could break the cycle by healing a villain or environment target instead, if there is one, or by attempting to damage a target that's immune to the damage or would reduce it to zero, or by attempting to heal a hero who's at max HP, but it's possible for none of those to be options.
I would imagine it's like stacked Twist the Ethers and damage type, or multiple back and forth redirects: You just pick one state to be true at the end of the resolution, and it goes through the list of possibilities first.
It's an infinite loop you can't get out of in some situations, and can be initiated by a non-player action. So it will be fixed with a text change. Feel free to play it on the tabletop however you like, of course!
Void Guard Dr. Medico - Malpractice’s power text is updated to read: “Until the end of your next turn, the first time each hero target would regain HP each turn, Dr. Medico deals 1 target that amount of energy damage instead.”
Interesting. That certainly fixes the problem, but it does allow for an interesting shenanigan.
Say Hypocritical Guise is getting +1 damage from somewhere, even to just one target. He tries to deal 1 damage (doesn't matter to what, as long as he nets at least +1 damage), and it becomes 2. He tries to heal himself for 2, so then he then tries to deal 2+1=3 damage. Repeat for every eligible hero target who's currently damaged for at least that amount. Considering The Sentinels have to be there, this could be +9 damage for an H=5 game, more if there are more injured hero targets (via Captain Cosmic, Unity, Luminary, etc).
Thanks for flipping that bit for me. But your wording makes me concerned. Are there infinite loops that can;t be broken, but can be initiated by player actions? If so, I will make it my eternal quest to find them!
I believe they've gone on record before to say there does exist an infinite loop that noone has asked them about yet. I don't think it counts the guise self-contained infinite.
Hmm, that fixes the infinite loop, but it's also a significant nerf when, eg, playing with The Scholar. Is there no way to fix the loop without nerfing the power?
I’m sure they were discussed but considering some other issues this is the simpler overall that I can see. I’m not thrilled with it but as to being a nerf it’s not as big as a I thought it might be.
That is a bit of a disappointment. When I read the power I assumed it would be ruled like friendly fire in setback’s deck where the same instance of healing/damage cannot be modified be those cards more then once. I think this was the first combo I thought of when o heard about the power.
so guise initiates 1 damage oath turns it into healing, malpractice turns it into damage guise deals 1 damage to a target.
guise heals 1 malpractice turns it into damage, oath turns it into healing guise heals a target 1.
I would feel better if the change was a balance issue because malpractice was a damage monster. (Still need to play it in physical)
He can be a damage monster within his own deck with the original wording. You just need one hero at two or less health and to trigger From The Brink. With one instance of damage hitting that low health hero you can trigger From The Brink as much as you want. If you have Experimental Medicine out then that damage is increased and irreducible
Well that makes me feel better about the new wording. The card effects really get into trouble when they say every time anyways. I may try playing a physical game with the old wording just to see how it feels for comparison.
Aww, why couldn’t it be fixed with more player choice? “Until the end of your next turn, whenever a hero target would regain HP, you may have Dr. Medico deal 1 target that amount of energy damage instead”.
If reducing the healing-to-damage conversion is too anti-thematic, there could be a “, and the first time each target would regain HP, you must deal damage instead” rider… but if reducing healding-to-damage conversion was actually an issue, going from “replace every time” to “replace only first instances” forces a bigger drop than “replace every time unless you choose not to”.
Ranking the min and max redness (Pink (no instances) < Red (first instances) < Crimson (all instances)) of Medico’s right hand by wording:
Max Crimson , min Crimson: Power as printed - whenever a hero would regain, Medico [must] deal damage instead
Max Crimson , min Red : Player choice with fist-time rider - whenever a hero would gain, Medico may deal damage instead, and must do so on first instance.
Max Crimson , min Pink: Player choice - whenever a hero would gain, Medico may deal damage instead.
Max Red, min Red: MigrantP’s posted update - the first time a hero would gain, Medico [must] deal damage instead.
Because there’s currently no condition on either card that allows for player choice, if the he attempts to heal he deals damage, which turns into healing, which makes him deal damage, which becomes healing, etc.
Most stuff involving player choice has may, or a conditional requirement, neither malpractice medico or hippocractic oath have a condition under which they don’t take effect.
bluedark, are you saying the problem can't be fixed by adding player choice because there's currently no condition on either card that allows for player choice and there is no condition under which the replacement doesn't take effect? Or just that the loop exists because there's no condition under which the replacements don't take effect?
I totally agree with the latter. If you meant the former, however, then by the same reasoning itt would also be the case that the problem can't be fixed by limiting the number of times the replacement happens because there's currently no condition on either card that limits the number of times the replacement happens and there is no condition under which the replacement doesn't take effect. But that's exactly the solution MigrantP announced (going from "no conditions under which replacement doesn't take effect" to "having conditions under which replacement doesn't take effect"), so I think there's good evidence that such a change is allowed on the table.
Malpractice Medico is already arguably overpowered. That change would make him vastly moreso. The power is supposed to take away his option to heal.
I agree entirely here. It’s also really contrary to the theme of the character to be able to heal.
I was wondering about that, myself.
Letting Guise break the power (i.e., either Guise deals damage or heals someone) seems fitting as an edge case where we expect shenanigans in the first place.