Haka letters page confusion!

Games Sentinels of the Multiverse
41

The "fusing of all the other Hakas" explanation doesn't make mathematical sense. If there are an infinite number of realities in the multiverse, and the strength and vitality of the Hakas in all of those realities gets condensed into the two main Hakas, then those two Hakas have infinite strength and vitality. As in, there should literally be nothing they can't lift because they have infinite strength. And their strength can't increase as more realities split off and those new Hakas are condensed into the main Hakas because you can't increase infinity. 

Sounds like Haka's backstory may have a little more "because... comics" in it than they intended. ;)

42

To be fair, unless another reality was split off before he was born, there would be no new Hakas. Also, depending on how you judge XPW's Haka appearing before OblivAeon, some Hakas are fused from the future.

43

 

Well, it would also take an Infinite amount of time to accomplish, and Haka is confirmed as growing in strength over time. But then, there would be more than two so we;re back to "because the story demands it" but it is also possible that the Destruction of Oblivaeon caused the process to fritz out.

 

IT's also possible that you hit a point of diminishing returns. You've got the strength of 10 billion men in your arms, does doubling that effectively do anything in terms of recognizable effects?

 

But yeah, there is a point where logic and math breaksdown in favor of the story, and I'm cool with that

44

Math stuff: first, Christopher and Adam suggested that there were ā€œhundreds or thousandsā€ of Hakas involved in this, not infinitely many, which suggests that they either have a shaky grasp on multiverse theory or are choosing not to implement it literally.

Otherwise, diminishing returns and the limit theorem can provide an answer. For instance, absorbing one other Haka might make him twice as strong, but absorbing two make him only 250% as strong, and three make him 275% as strong, then infinitely many would make him only 300% as strong as normal.

45
My unsolicited take is:
 
First, we need to establish the concept that time doesn't "line up" across all realities in the same way. C&A mentioned this in the episode, but it's been missing from the discussion thus far.  Say I have Nightmist open up a portal to several realities, all at the same moment by my clock. One might open on a reality in 1726. Another might open on a reality in the year 3000. Still another might open during the ice age. I think, if I guess correctly, that if Nightmist closes those three portals, waits ten minutes by my clock, and then opens the same portals to the same realities, you get a portal to 1726 + 10 mins, one to 3000 + 10 mins, and one to ice age + 10 mins. Time progresses at the same rate in each reality, but their starting points aren't the same. Fundamentally, this is how characters accomplish time travel: they don't jump "back" or "forward" in the same reality, but instead they jump "across" to a different reality that is in the time they want.
 
An immediate point that follows is that not every reality has a Haka. Why? Because in some, it's the year 1086, and Aata hasn't been born yet.
 
At some point, the mysterious I'm-totally-on-board-with-the-Maria-Helena-theory entity becomes aware of OblivAeon, decides that they need Haka around, and Does the Thing that binds Aata (in the Core Game timeline) and Arataki (in some obscure other timeline) together. They become immortal, and start to absorb power from other Hakas (who I won't refer to by name) in other realities. This happens at the time in the Core Game timeline when Aata wakes up to find his Ta Moko gone. Either that was the time where the Core Game timeline was when La Entitydora fought OblivAeon - since the timelines don't all line up - or La Capentity was able to go back into the Core Game timeline to that point because she's one of the only characters with that capability.
 
Hakas begin to absorb other Hakas. My guess for the mechanism is that when Hakas die, their power goes into other realities. This explains why Aata and Arataki gain power slowly (and constantly) over time: because the timelines don't all line up, different other-universe Hakas die at different times as seen from the Core Game timeline. Each time one dies, from natural or other causes, Aata and/or Arataki gain power. With so many alternate Hakas to absorb, this appears to be a constant, steady gain in power.
 
Eventually, the OblivAeon fight happens in the Core Game timeline. NightMist opens the gates, and Aata goes off into other realities looking for heroes to recruit into that fight. One of those heroes happens to be Arataki, who comes into the Core Game timeline and fights OblivAeon. When, eventually, the heroes defeat OblivAeon, the mistgates close, (1) trapping Arataki in the Core Game reality which now becomes the RPG timeline, and (2) trapping Aata in the reality he happened to be searching for allies at that moment, which happens to be a very similar reality to the Core Game one and now becomes the Tactics timeline.
 
X-TREME Prime Wardens Haka isn't a guy we really need to worry about - awesome as he is, the TIMEVTIME cover actually includes both the X-TREME Prime Wardens' entrance into the Core Game timeline and their exit. They pop out of the portal into some other reality, to go be awesome, probably. Or maybe radical. To the max.
 
However, the X-TREME Prime Wardens do have a useful purpose here: they rule out the idea that (Core Game) Aata and Arataki are the only Hakas to absorb other Hakas. Because the cover says that the X-TREME Prime Wardens are "alternate reality versions of the Prime Wardens," and X-TREME Prime Wardens Haka is clearly able to fight as a member of the team. So various Hakas have been absorbing power from other realities' Hakas across all the timelines of the multiverse.
 
In this model, Eternal Haka is just another of those Hakas absorbing power. However, he seems to have been doing so for longer than any of the other Hakas - including Aata and Arataki, which doesn't make sense if The Thing happened at the same time (as seen from the Core Game timeline) in all realities. One possibility, though, is that Eternal Haka is the very same person as Core Game Aata, and the Final Wasteland is the end result of either the Core Game timeline (pre-OblivAeon) or the Tactics Timeline (post-OblivAeon). The Final Wasteland gets weird because Chrono-Ranger, the only other character able to travel back through the same timeline, averts the Wasteland from happening and erases Eternal Haka from existence, Marty-McFly-style. This is the point where my understanding gets most shaky and I don't think things quite line up.
46

Thanks for articulating that Trajector! Iā€™ve been thinking about time in the multiverse that way for a while now but havenā€™t been able to put it into words. The central reference point for all timelines is OblivAeon since NightMist linked realities at that point. I like to call it OblivAeon Standard Time.

The 2 main questions I think are key to making sense of all this are:

  1. Does time move at the same rate in all realities and if not, does it move at a constant rate in each reality relative to other realities? I think itā€™s safe to assume that time moves in the same direction in all realities (since time travel would be easy otherwise).
  2. Can Maria Helena travel between realities or only in time within a given reality? The former seems likely given the art on ĀæQuando Ahora? But that begs the question of why the heroes seem to keep encountering the same La Capitan rather than alternate versions? E.g. why havenā€™t the heroes encountered La Clamodora from the animalverse? We know from Choquito that La Comodora has been to the Final Wasteland so the answer to this question could clear up whether that Eternal Haka is the main timeline Haka.
47

Does it Dadolo, does it.  With ĀæQuando?  Ā”Ahora! the possiblity of dimention hopping is there, so the final wasteland can still be in another reality. And who says we havn't,  Āæ Donde?  Ā” Aqui! has 2 comodora, the flip side of La Capitan has er with scales for skin. Until her powers are "Expalined" anything is possible. I just want to know if she is paradox proof. And if she meet up with the Chronoist (I forgot this question, how may are you alowed to ask?)

I am excited for her show.

 

 

48

If the answer is she can only travel in time, that would help clear the Final Wasteland question upā€¦ If she can also move between realities, then no.

Should be a fun episode and an illuminating one.

49

#2 sounds wrong to me. The way the Tactics and RPG timelines are created, from what I gather from the podcast, is that both are created from the Core Game reality at the moment Chronoranger is killed along with Rook City. Aata is in a completely unrelated reality, and at some point in the Tactics timeline, somehow reality hopping is made available again and he comes back.

50

Trajector has it right, actually, Haka was reality-hopping the entire time OblivAeon was being fought, and happened to end up in the Tactics timeline and was still there right as OblivAeon was defeated and the mist gates collapsed as a result.

51

My main point of contention is his referring to the Tactics timeline is a separate reality that's similar to the Core Game timeline, where the way it's described, Tactics and RPG are both from the Core Game timeline.

Also in the Haka episode, Christopher specificalliy says "In the Sentinel Tactics timeline, there is no Haka in that world." He goes on to say Aata "eventually appears in the timeline, sort of, in the Prime War."

52

The implication is moreso that people don't know what happened to Haka and Tactics is the reality he got stuck in.  

53

Where's that quote from?

54

From the write up by WalkingTarget on the wiki https://sentinelswiki.com/index.php?title=Podcasts/Episode_33#tab=Quicknotes

55

That's possible. That's a bit of a conjecture though, since Christopher and Adam don't confirm that he's in Tactics, just that he shows up in Prime War "sort of". This leaves 2 possiblities: 1) He's already there, but no one knows. or 2) Dimension hopping becomes available again.

Since the timeline splits at a specific point in the fight, I'm assuming Arataki shows up after the split, but I'm curious how travel works between the two new timelines.

Also, since the world gets split and there isn't 2 versions of Aata and Arataki, neither are in this reality when it is split. Arataki shows up, but why would Aata go to Tactics to get help for RPG timeline?

56

This is the RPG section which confirms Aata from the start gets stuck in the Tactics timeline

It's certainly possible reality hopping becomes a thing again but that's not what happened here. 

57

That's not what I'm hearing from Christopher and Adam on the podcast. They never said he is specifically locked in Tactics-verse. Just that he's not in the Comics reality and that he's locked out. I've listened to that section of the podcast multiple times since we've started this discussion.

I'm not saying it's impossible that he's currently in the Tactics timeline, since they're being purposefully vague, but they specifically do not mention which reality he is in.

And it's still poses the question: why is he not split with the timelines like everyone else when the timelines split? Everyone else mentioned in the podcast so far appear in both realities because they are present when the timelines split when Chronoranger is killed. So either he comes back from getting help to the Tactics timeline or isn't in either of these timeline but some other timeline (say, Arataki's original timeline)

But this isn't really my main issue to begin with. Trajector's post states Core Game becomess RPG timeline, and Tactics is just a similar timeline that exists, where my disagreement is that RPG and Tactics are both the Core Game timeline.

58

I would agree on the point RPG and Tactics are built from the main SotM timeline.  They branch off from events occurring while OblivAeon is attacking.    As to Haka's split it would appear tied to whatever makes it so only two of him exist anymore.  I assume we will get more explanation with an upcoming episode since another character was directly involved in that.  Regardless, the notes written up agree with what I understood from listening the podcast that the Haka from the card game is stuck in the Tactics timeline while getting help against OblivAeon and his alternate reality version Arataki ended up in the RPG timeline because she helped during OblivAeon.  

59

I dislike this part of the write-up because Christopher and Adam do not say that directly. Whether it turns out to be true or not, weā€™ll see.

We havenā€™t gotten details of the OblivAeon fight right? Is he actually fight in the RPG reality? I know good shards end up in both realities, which is why he canā€™t get put back together

60

Haka exists in both Tactics and the RPG but Aata does not. There is only Aata and Arataki by the end of the Oblivaeon event.

 

Now, I'm with corran109. It is possible that Haka ends up in the Tactics timeline because of Oblivaeon, but ending up in the Tactics timeline directly from Oblivaeon, when it is a future where Oblivaeon has been defeated before Oblivaeon was defeated... doesn't make sense because until Oblivaeon was actually defeated a universe where he was defeated could not exist. So, if the Gate dropped Haka in the reality that becomes Tactics, it was during the fight. The more I think about this the less sense it makes.

 

So, because OBlivaeon breaks time and space and must therefore have his own timeline that is not effected by the timelines of the various realities, Haka, in my opinion, has to end up somewhere else because of the Gate, because you can't be in a future when Oblivaeon was destroyed by the very nature of Oblivaeon and his goal to destroy everything. 

 

Think about it, how could Oblivaeon destroy a reality in which he lost the fight, died, and all travel between realities was locked? He cannot, so, since we must believe the threat he posed was real and he could actually destroy all realities, then it must be impossible to travel to a reality where he was already defeated and therefore Haka's Gate could not have appeared in the future of the Tactics timeline.

 

My personal theory is that Aata was actually stuck between realities. He appears in Tactics not because travel between realities is now possible, but because he was squeezed out of the space between realities and Tactics is where he landed.