Ideas for Playable Villains

Playing against ambuscade the other night, I couldn't help thinking what he'd be like as a hero.  What kind of cards would he have in his hero deck, what additional or new backstory would explain his current stance as a hero, and what mechanics would be introduced that would maintain the feel of the Ambuscade villian while offering something new to the current hero roster.

Then today, I found this little nugget from Adam on a thread discussing competition in Sentinels, and the specific example of trying to use villain decks as hero decks: "Balance becomes a substantial issue at that point, if you were to use the same deck. Villains becoming heroes is a classic comic trope and we'd love to simulate that in-game somehow, but we won't do it if we can't do it well." (source: http://sentinelsofthemultiverse.com/forum/topic/cooperative-games-ftw)

So the gears have been turning - what about that future that Visionsry came from, or another future she's only glimpsed, could things have  worked out differently there and one of the villains we've been facing down actually figts as one of the sentinels?  The 12 year-old working away at the mill of my imagination can only wildly hope that >G has this same idea and is preparing a complete expansion that offers us some classic villains as new heroes and classic heroes as new villains (tell me the "angrier" Legacy from Visionary's timeline does not look downright maniacal).

If we are so lucky, what villains would you want to see as heroes?  and how do you think they might play?

Personally, I'd love to see Baron Blade, having equipment cards that worked like his villain mechanic - each came in with a small number of hit points, and each would lose one point at the start of BB's turn, dealing him damage when they're destroyed, but if he can fulfill certain conditions before thy're destroyed (play certain combo of cards, acquire X number of cards in one round, etc.), he can replace them with some shiny invention.  So essentially, a big risk character with some ridiculous equipment, and as a player, you'd have to decide which finished equipment you're going for, the giant exoskeleton that makes you a tank, the platform that allows you to manipulate the environment deck, the supercomputer that floods you (or your allies) with cards, or the shrink ray that makes specific targets easier or harder to pick off.

But what ideas do you have?

 

p.s. I imagine this post echoes some of the legal, intellectual property issues raised by the create a villain contest, and if no one minds, I make the above statements under the same conditions and understandings presented by GreaterThanGames for that contest.  Feel free to use my ideas however you'd like - I make no claim to them, now and for eternity.

 

I always thought Baron Blade would make an interesting "promo ally", ready to help heroes against threats to his own power/plans. It would fit his tropes quite well.

I can also see Citizen Dawn and her citizens fighting side by side with the heroes, from time to time - after all, they want to Rule the world, they don't apreciate people wanting to destroy it. Or Conquer it for their space empire. I think they would be better as an "environment" deck than as Heroes, though... I can easily imagine a three way battle between the Freedom Five, Voss and the Citizen Army...

Akash'buta helping heroes against a threat would make a good story... Wether she helps by her own volition, or because someone used a spell to control her.

Another one that would fit is the Operative... Sometimes helping heroes is the profitable thing to do for the organization...

 

Legal : I make the above statements under the same conditions and understandings presented by GreaterThanGames for the Create a Villain contest.  Feel free to use the ideas above however you'd like - I make no claim to them, now and for eternity.

 

(This said, I am an unemployed game designer ;) )

I liked a villain from the submission which either implied or led me to think that some of the villain cards would feature versions of the various badguys that fight this galactic threat... while hurting the heroes a little too.

It would rule if the next expansion (or the kickstarter bonuses) focus heavily on alternate heroes and villains... personally I keep wanting to design some... especially I like the idea of hero cards that act more like an ongoing than a power.

 

 

 

 

 

Honestly, I'd love to see a future promo deck of a villain character being a hero deck. And yes, I think Baron Blade would be the most likely candidate. I honestly can't see anyone else being the sort of person to fit the profile of "potential villain-turned-hero".

I could see an alternate-universe themed expansion introducing...

Citizen Dawn as a hero: The superhuman population turns to her for guidance and protection. She recruits the strong and the willing among her charges to lead the fight against ancient and alien threats to their world.

Baron Blade as a hero: His father's apparent death at the hands of Legacy's father was merely a ruse, allowing Fyodor to defect to America and allow the soviets to think him dead. With young Ivan being raised in the States, and learning how dangerous power can be, he now fights for peace, but is prepared for war.

Absolute Zero as a villain: Embittered by his (let's face it) slavery in exchange for a life-saving cryosuit, he takes his vengeance on those who would use him for their own ends.

Fanatic as a villain: What if the divine force that gave her life and power... wasn't a holy one?

Ra as a villain: The leader of The Ennead craves power and dominion far more than his servants, and if he cannot have the world, he will see it burnt to ashes.

Tempest as a villain: After repelling the meager Thorathian invasion attempt, the Maerynians' taste for war was rekindled after countless generations. Setting out into the stars, they chased the tattered remains of Voss's fleet back to Dok'Thorath and utterly obliterated all life on the planet, to serve as an example to others. Now, driven by a renewed thirst for battle and led by the cunning M'kk Dall'Ton, the Maerynian hordes turn to other worlds, to preemptively quell the threats they may someday pose.

That's 2 heroes and 4 villains... enough for an expansion.

That's a decent idea. Though, honestly, if there was a hero/villain changing sides thing, I'd rather have it be as a promo deck rather than part of an expansion. Just because I'd like there to stay room for new characters in themed expansions. This is a theme, of course, but I'd rather only one or two characters to have this sort of treatment.

But fighting Absolute Zero as a villain would be very satisfying, personally. -not a huge fan of AZ-

I think the $5 deck is a great format for a lot of these ideas and others, asuming $5 decks provide some sort of profit for the publishers. I've spent more (in my weaker days) for boxes of random minis or packs of cards.

Thing is Sentinels is one of the most modular games I've played... every deck is completely indipendant and plays by it's own rules, so there is no such thing as "you dont have that expansion". You either have the characters or dont, lol.

So yeah, there are a lot of odds and ends I would buy for $5 including pretty much any of the villains in the villain contest (especially my own, lol) or new niche heroes (The Archer! The Luchador! The Android!) or for weird experiments (a challenge deck, or holo training deck, or deck of scenarios, or Spiff style accesories).

True. I'd love for there to be more promo decks advertised in the next Kickstarter. Well, I'm sure everyone would want that. I don't think anyone would be against more content. But yes, it'd only be okay to do if these mini-expansions were actually profitable. Though I'm sure the next Kickstarter is going to blow up even bigger than the last one, which completely shocked me earlier this year. I was blown away back then, so I'm sure this next one will blow my expectations away even more.

But I bring that up because when they do make a couple hundred thousand dollars for the next Kickstarter (I have 100% confidence in this estimation), they'll have more than enough money to create any promo decks they have in mind. Like that environment they mentioned last time. So I'm looking forward to that.

Off topic, but i wouldn't be too confident about the size of the next kickstarter.

This last one included the enhanced edition, so there were a lot of people pledging more money (EE and IR) than they would have if had just been infernal relics on its own.

Depending on what is offered for the next kickstarter, be prepared for the total to be lower. Certainly there will be levels to buy everything released so far, but I would expect most people (myself included) would probably just get the expansion.

In theory, I have nothing against 5$ extensions / promos - as long as they are distributed in Europa :) Shipping from the US is madness.

But yes, if they are profitable, these extensions could be a good move - even if it would make SotM a "collectible deck game" :)

Had actually been thinking about some playable villains last night as I was sleeving the last of my cards. I was sleeving Ra and Citizen Dawn and then it DAWNED on me that Ra is the Sun God and Citizen Dawn draws her power from the sun. 

RA IS FUELING TERRORISM. Also they should hook up. Dawn could easily become a fun hero to play without her citizens. 

Ax0r-

I didn't mean it as off topic, sorry, I just meant since I do have confidence that the Kickstarter will be quite successful (to whatever degree that may be, you do make a valid point), I'm hoping this will mean we can expect the opportunity for promo decks. Of course, this would require them to have promo decks in mind and planned. Still, I'm just saying they're going to do fairly well, so we will probably have those kinds of opportunities. But you're absolutely right: I did overlook the fact that the last Kickstarter included the EE.

And I know this going to sound like pure madness, but I'd be glad to add another $5 to my Kickstarter pledge for each promo deck we are offered and reach the goal for. It's nice to get other free stuff (promo character cards, etc.), but I feel like it'd be smart on our part for us and >G. It just comes down to us each putting in just a little more money, which could potentially give us more rewards. But this is all under the condition that the adding $5 for the promo deck is totally voluntary.

I'll just make this personal pledge: for every promo deck we are offered for free as a reward, I will add another $5 to my kickstarter pledge. Obviously, other people will have different desires when it comes to how much they'll pay, but I'll just do this for the sake of it and make myself feel a little better in helping the cause.

I only meant that it was me derailing the thread (which I'm doing again!). No need to apologise.

I'd be glad to add another $5 to my Kickstarter pledge for each promo deck we are offered and reach the goal for. It's nice to get other free stuff (promo character cards, etc.), but I feel like it'd be smart on our part for us and >G. It just comes down to us each putting in just a little more money, which could potentially give us more rewards. But this is all under the condition that the adding $5 for the promo deck is totally voluntary.I'll just make this personal pledge: for every promo deck we are offered for free as a reward, I will add another $5 to my kickstarter pledge. Obviously, other people will have different desires when it comes to how much they'll pay, but I'll just do this for the sake of it and make myself feel a little better in helping the cause.

I feel like this is a FANTASTIC idea. If you look at some of the really, really ridiculously successful game kickstarters (zombicide, ogre, that recent miniatures one), the thing that puts them up to stratospheric levels is all the add-ons.

Think back to the EE/IR kickstarter. Once we got to the threshold where Unity was available, the rate of pledges suddenly shot up very quickly. Why? Because everyone who had already pledged suddenly added an extra $5 dollars to their pledge. Same happened with Zombicide, on a much bigger scale - hit a level, and suddenly you can pay 10 bucks more and get Uma Thurman from Kill Bill? Hell yes. Chuck Norris? Yes. Cardboard tube Samurai? Please, take my money. If some stretch goals are really compelling, but cost only a little bit extra compared to how much people have already pledged, amost everyone will pay that extra. You need to have free stretch goals peppered in there so people feel like they're getting free stuff, and then when the paid extra comes along, it's that much easier to justify the additional cost ("I'm already getting alt characters, and a comic book, and a bonus villain, it's worth $5 to pay a bit extra to cover all that and get a bonus hero too").

This is what the really well planned, really successful kickstarters do.

Exactly! So it technically would be best for the Kickstarter to charge an extra $5 for each promo deck, but some people may complain since we got Ambuscade for free last time. But they don't matter; they obviously don't see the advantage of just putting in a little more. But I'll be keeping up the cause for any promo decks offered for free. And you know what? I'll throw in an additional $2 for any promo character cards offered for free. Ideally, this next kickstarter will yield at least the same amount of promos we got for IR/EE: four promo character cards, one hero deck, and one villain deck.

But I'm glad someone else sees the value of this plan. It can totally work.

Please, oh PLEASE let this happen. I'd probably buy an entire expansion JUST for that, even if nothing else in the expansion was of interest to me.

Personally, I don't really like the idea of $5 for just a single deck. I went with Unity because I wanted that deck (and it was only one deck to buy, so I shrugged it off) and Ambiscade because I was able to get it free (though I think I had to come up with some extra purchases to do so, as I think it was an extra addon for spending so much to begin with).  I much prefer the $40 for 18 decks and $20 for 8 decks, each of which come to less than $5 for a deck.  Quite honestly, if single decks start to become trendy, I might just not opt for them altogether (and, maybe one day hope for a "promo pack" which would be an expansion of sorts containing a set of previously released single decks).

That's fine reasoning too. I can understand that reasoning, and yeah, I could imagine there being a "promo pack" one day as a discount for buying all the promo decks together. That'd be a fine choice too.

I liked the idea of a playable Hero version of the Baron, and decided to try making one.  

The core idea is that a lot of his equipment and minions interact with his trash, either to keep them in play, or to power them up.  

I did some playtesting, and it seems to work out pretty well!  I'll be tweaking and changing, but the core idea seems solid and so far doesn't seem overpowering.

Here is what I have so far (the number in parentheses are the number of cards of that type in the deck):

Baron Blade

20 HP

Power: Plans and Plots

Discard the top card of your deck.

 

Defeated Powers:

Choose a Hero.  The next damage dealt by that hero is increased by 1. 

A Hero may Play an Equipment card

A Hero may put a card from their trash on top of their deck.

 

One Shots:

Orbital Strike (2):  Deal a Target X damage, where X is the number of cards in your trash

Repair Nanites (3): Heal Baron Blade for 5 HP

Maniacal Laughter (3):  Draw 5 cards.  Discard 4 of them.  Play a card.

Backstab (3):  BB deals a hero target up to 5 Energy Damage.  Draw as many cards as Damage taken by that Hero Target.

Show them ALL! (3):  Discard a Card.  Then, BB deals ALL targets 2 Energy Damage.  Then, BB deals all Villain targets 3 Energy damage.

Consider the Price of Victory! (3):  Destroy ALL of BB's Ongoings, Equipment, and Minions.  For every card destroyed, BB may destroy a non-character card.

 

Ongoings:

Living Forcefield (3) (Limited):  Reduce all Damage to BB by 1.  At the start of the turn, move a card from the trash underneath this card or destroy this card.

Backlash Field (3) (Limited):  Any time BB takes damage, a target takes an equal amount of energy damage.  At the start of the turn, move one card from the trash underneath this card or destroy this card.

Power: Destroy this card to deal a target X energy damage, where X is the number of cards underneath this card

 

Revenge! (3):  If BB takes more than 4 damage from a villain target, he may move a card from the villain trash underneath one of his equipments or ongoings.  

 

Equipment

Battle Suit (2) (Limited) :  1 HP (base), 10 (max)

When played, put up to 9 cards from the trash underneath this card.  Each card increases the HP the suit starts with by 1.   

Redirect all damage to BB to this card.

Power: BB deals 1 target 2 energy damage, and another target 1 Melee damage.

 

Control Optics (3) (limited):  Increase Damage from BB and minions by 1.

Death Ray (3) (limited):  Start of turn: Move up to 4 cards from the trash underneath this card.  Increase damage from this power by 1 for every 4 cards underneath this card.

Power: BB deals a target 2 Energy Damage.

 

Minions

Blade Battalion (3): 5 HP

Discard a card to play this card

Start of Turn: BB may either draw two cards or have the Battalion deal 2 melee damage to target.

End of Turn: Move a card from the trash underneath the Blade Battalion, or the Blade battalion deals itself 1 melee damage.

 

Lab Assistant (3): 1 HP

Start of Turn: discard the top card of the deck.

 

I tested him, and he plays with some of the same pacing as Unity.  AOE damage is not friendly, and with his low HP, he is very vulnerable to High damage enemies.  However, once he gets rolling he can really be nasty.

As always, comments are awesome. 

Legal disclaimer:  same as everyone else.  The >Games folks can do whatever they want with this idea!  

Nice job with the Blade deck. It's pretty cool, and I like the fact that he might sometimes damage the heroes themselves. But I feel like the "X damage, where X is number of cards in the trash" would get ridiculously overpowered, especially with cards designed to make him discard cards quickly.

While I agree it can be a solid hit, there are a number of factors that (in my opinion) keep it from being overpowering. 

1.  His devices and ongoings require you to remove them from the trash and place them underneath (the ongoings or equips), which effectively removes them from the available "pool" in the trash. Certainly, not doing that makes the orbital strike hit harder, but makes BB's chances to survive to get in that big hit much lower.

2.  BB doesn't really get to play multiple cards. You can chain maniacal laughter to beef up the trash, but he only gets three.  Getting the support structure in place to discard multiple cards takes time, and is vulnerable to AOE attacks, which means that a single bad villain round can wipe out all of your preparation. 

3.  At most, he's going to get a 39 point hit. Which is with everything in the trash except an orbital strike.  I felt that was fine, given the setup involved. More commonly, he's going to be getting 10-20 points in the mid game, and sacrificing powering equipment to do it.

Besides, tach has her barrages, fanatic her retribution, and Unity her horde. I'm not going to begrudge the good Baron an orbital death ray!