could someone please explain the interaction between these two cards?
Cramped Quarters Combat converts all damage to melee and increases all damage by 1. Embued Fire increases all fire damage by 1, and converts all damage dealt by heroes by one. When both cards are in play, the basic rule of “first card played” applies. If Cramped Quarters Combat was played before Embued Fire, when a hero attacks, Cramped Quarters Combat converts the damage to melee, and Embued Fire then converts it to fire damage, resulting in fire damage being dealt. If Embued Fire was played prior to Cramped Quarters Combat, then Embued Fire converts a hero’s damage to fire, then Cramped Quarters Combat converts the damage to melee, with an end result of melee damage.
One interesting note on Embued Fire: I noticed that it’s stated “All fire damage is incrased by 1. Change the damage type of damage dealt by heroes to fire.” Ignoring the spelling error, it first increases fire damage by one, and then afterwards converts hero damage to fire. Based on this evaluation, if the hero’s damage was not originally fire, it will become fire, but it won’t benifet the damage increase, as the check for fire occurs before changing to fire.
I think you’re wrong there, at least about the second part.
Why would I be wrong? In all other cases, when one piece of game text is followed by a second piece of game text, the first piece is decided first, and the second is only decided after the first. The first is never applied after the second. Why would this case be any different?
Because 1) the intent of the card is obviously to be an ally buff, and 2) you’re dealing fire damage, and fire damage is +1, then you’re dealing +1 damage. I don’t care if the +1 fire damage or the changing to fire damage happens first, the net effect is the same. Tomato, tomato (ok, so that phrase fails in print, but you know what I mean).
That is clearly how a human would read it to mean. But in many previous cases, the “obvious” answer is not the correct answer. It’s basic common sense verses logical sense. Any good scientist will always ignore common sense, and only rely on proven facts and reliable theory backed by correct execution of the scientific method. Common sense says “Well, the card increases all fire damage, and changes all heroes attack to fire, so then all hero’s attacks will be increased.” A logical ordered execution of the script would read “Okay, is the hero’s damage type currently fire? If so, increase by one. Now, convert the damage to fire type,” which would result in damage not originally fire to not be increased by one. Unless there is some keyword I don’t see in that sentence which implies that this damage increase should only be checked after all other damage modifications have been checked, I don’t see why it would not be done as I said. I can see it being read as embuing all allies with fire, thus causing them to be fire attackers now, but if they already were fire attackers, the extra fire boost given to them then further increases they’re damage output.
In all previous cases, when common sense interpretations was put up against logical sense executions, the creators have agreed with logic. Given time for one of them to read up on this, I’m sure they’ll give us an official ruling on this case.
Okay, so then by that logic, what happens when it’s the next players turn? It’s Ra’s turn, he plays a card (Imbue Fire) and finishes his turn. The card has hit the table, therefore, its effects are in play, agreed? So fire damage is at +1, and heroes deal fire damage. Ok, so Ra has gone, now it’s say, Wraith’s turn. I don’t see anything saying that imbue fire ever goes “off” unless it is destroyed (intentionally or otherwise). Ok, so now Wraith is going to deal damage, is hero’s damage currently fire? Yes. So increase by one.
The way I am explaining it. Everything occurs as you said up to the point where it’s Wraith’s turn. At this point, she decides to attack (let’s say with melee damage, given that is her specialty. At this point, all cards which react to a card dealing damage, a target/character dealing damage, and Wraith herself dealing damage, immediately go off, executing their rules in order they were played. A variety of cards (or none at all) that were played prior to Emued Fire react to Wraith attacking. Embued Fire now reacts to Wraith attacking. It’s first response is to the trigger of any card dealing damage. It checks the type of damage, and if fire, increases the damage by one. Unless a previous card changed her damage type (let’s say none of the previous cards do), her attack is not increased, as it’s currently melee damage. Now, the cards second response (triggered by any hero character attacking) then modifies the type of her attack to that of fire. Then cards played after Embued Fire react to her attack. (Going a bit off topic, I’ll then state that, after those responses have occured, then any cards that reacts to damage being dealt to a target occur in order, then any cards which react to damage that has been dealt to a target occur in order, and finally any card that reacts to a card that has dealt damage to a target occur in order.) Your explaination, while making sense by mear explaination, is difficult to execute step by step without adding arbetrary steps not stated in the rule book or on the cards. While I believe in many cases this is not an incorrect assumption, the focus on this game for all actions to occur in logical steps dictated by the rulebook and then by the cards themselves, I don’t think such an explaination works for this case.
At this point, you’ve given your reason, and I’ve countered with my reason. You’ve given your example, I’ve countered with my example. Given that I do not have authority, and I have no reason to belive you have authority (unless you are some super double secret game developer working for Greater Than Games and simply refuse to identify yourself as such), I find no reason to get further into this, and thus I’ll wait for an official response. I see no need for a last word, as that right I reserver for Christopher and his minions (heheheh). Prior to that, you meay do as you see fit, as well others reading this may come to their own conclusion as to which way is correct, whether it’s your explaination, my explaination, or some other weird wacky reasoning that no one could dream of (well, except the weird wacky person who came up with it, that is). Also, unless the game is being played in a tournament or other official setting, the house rules ruling means that anything that you, I, or anyone else here has said since the creation of these message boards are free to be completely ignored.
At this point I have no further quarrel with you, and patiently (or is it anxiously?) await the results of the official ruling.
(In any case, I must thank you, as this back and forth banter has helped increase my post count. Any day now I should surpass Adam and become the number 1 poster any day now, heheheheheh. Oh drat, my evil plans for domination of the Multiverse have been leaked…)
Ok, ruling time. The reason this card is different is that both parts of the text on Imbued Fire are ongoing, static buffs. These things aren’t happening in any order because it’s not a power or one-shot, so once it’s in play, both of the effects are in play. All fire damage is increased by one. Okay. Change the damage type of damage dealt by heroes to fire. Now I’m dealing fire damage, but wait, all fire damage is plus one. So yes, Imbued Fire gives everyone an increased one damage.
I assume since you made no mention of it, that theJayMann is correct in regards to the original question?
Okay, so you say they are static buffs, and they have no order. But I have an issue with this, because all things must have an order. If they have no order, they can’t be applied. You state damage change and damage increase are both static. So, a hero’s type is changed to fire as a static buff, and since now they are fire, Some order needs to apply here though. Let’s say a hero already has a fire attack. Checking that it’s fire increases this by one. Then it needs to be changed to fire. Okay, check again, yes, it’s fire, so plus one (again). Okay, in that case, I can easily see an implied ruling stating a specific buff can only occur one time, fixing this problem. But now another problem.
Add Cramped Quarters Combat after Embued Fire. Embued Fire’s second static buff will convert this to fire. Now, Embued Fire’s first buff will check for fire, which it is, and thus increase by one. Now, Crampled Quarters Combat changes the type to melee. The damage is still plus one from the Embued Fire because we’ve arbetrarily decided to apply it after the change to fire but before the change to melee, thus dealing a total of plus two. Common sense though would state that the resulting damage was melee, but that assumes we check for the fire bonus static buff after all these other statc buffs? Why would that static buff be treated so differently than the others? In that case, why woulding I be able to simply say that I want the conversion to fire to occur last of the static buffs, and the fire plus one to occur first (leaivng the conversion to melee in the middle) (well, other than the fact that puts me at a disadvantage, that is). Given these three in effect static (and ultimately conflicting) static buffs, saying they have no order ultimately states they can’t have any effect. Only three solutions exist in this case in order to allow the previously stated result. First is that a player is allowed to apply static buffs in any order they so decide (which does fit the overall rule of simultainious actions, given you state there is no order). Second is that all static effects are determined in the order they are played repeatedly (either during each step of the way, or after all reactions have occured) until the result is the same as the previous result (e.g. in first case, check fire, not fire, no +1, change to fire, repeat, check for fire, +1, change to fire, compare to previous, not same, repeat, check for fire, +1 (not commulatively), change to fire, compare to previous, same, done). The final is that when one static buff enters play which conflicts with a previous static buff, the new static buff overwrites the previous static buff, thus allowing all static buffs to be able to be applied simultaniously without order and without conflict (in such a case, if the card for the new static buff is destroyed while the card for the previous static buff is still in play, then the previous static buff is reapplied and still in effect.)
(Is Tamar here to determine that all my openning paranthesis are correctly matched with closing paranthesis?)
I am with Jay on this one. A certain order has to be implied or the whole thing breaks down. I am of the school that you follow the order as it is presented on the card (as it appears Jay is also). So in this instance it would provide a bonus then change the damage type. It seems that the logic that was implied by the rules and the cards would follow this pattern regardless of how we feel it should work. Also since the cards would be in play prior to other heroes effects these card effects would happen first then any other card plays per the rulebook.
[quote=“Rulebook: Conflict Resolution”]Over the course of a game, there are situations in which the effects of multiple cards take place simultaneously or have competing effects. In all situations, card effects that happen simultaneously take effect in the order in which the cards were played.
Example 1: at the end of Citizen Dawn’s Villain turn, she deals the Hero with the highest HP 2 energy damage. Citizen Battery is in play, and, at the end of the Villain turn, he deals the Hero with the highest HP 3 energy damage. In this game, Haka currently has the most HP, at 28, so he takes the 2 from Citizen Dawn, as Dawn was in play before Battery. This drops Haka to 26 HP, and now Legacy, who currently has 27 HP, has the highest HP. Therefore, Legacy takes the 3 damage from Citizen Battery.
Example 2: The Megalopolis Environment card “Cramped Quarters Combatâ€
I just now noticed that’s in the online rule book. I’m almost certain that second example (both second examples) are not in the printed rulebook included with the game (though currently I can’t prove this, as I can’t find my rulebook at the moment). In any case, there is a clear error in the first second example listed. It states that Embued Fire increases all hero’s damage by one point. While it may be the case that it does in fact always increase Hero’s damage by one, that’s not how it’s listed. It states that all fire damage is increased by one, which includes environment and villain fire attacks (actually, it “incrases” fire damage by one, can’t believe still nobody noticed that).
Yes, sorry I missed that, in the case of cramped-quarters combat, I believe it would be a order-of-play scenario, but I’ll double-check with Christopher on that, as he’s the rules guru and I’ll get him to weigh in on the entire thread.
HOWEVER
You’re over-complicating things with imbued fire. It’s not a computer program, so it doesn’t have to do repeated checks. All hero attacks are fire, if they’re fire, they’re +1. If Cramped Quarters Combat changes them to melee, they aren’t fire, so they aren’t +1.
Whether it’s a computer program or not, there’s either an order to things or there has to be a way to resolve things that happen simultaneously. I think Adam and Paul are saying [please correct me if I’m wrong!] that these two things are simultaneous because their order doesn’t matter, but Jay is pointing out how the order does matter. I agree with Jay – we either need rules for resolving simultaneous effects, a ruling that says the order on this particular card is wrong, or a ruling that says the order on this particular card is right.
No, you’re just confusing the issue.
As soon as it hits the table, the effects are “on”.
Your only problem lies in the interpretation that somehow, your damage is switched from fire (after the card hits the table) back to its original type at the beginning of the hero turn, an unfounded assumption that is clearly not the case. Once the card is down, all hero damage is fire. And since fire damage deals +1 damage, fire damage deals +1 damage.
That’s one way to see it in a way that makes some sense. It still relies on some sort of order. Anyway, the way we are seeing it, it’s not switching from fire back to it’s original type back to fire again, but rather, it’s it’s original type, and then finally applied to a filter which changes it to fire (basically, we are saying it’s not automatically fire from the get go, but rather eventually gets changed to fire as a response). It still in some way requires that the type change occurs early, and the damage modifier occurs late.
Yeah, the way I see it, you can either reapply each bonus each time an attack (or other trigger) occurs (TheJayMann’s argument), or you can treat them as if they are always in play, from the time the card is played to the time it’s destroyed (awp’s argument). It sounds like Adam is ruling that it’s the latter.
That’s correct, Slender. If the output damage is fire, it’s +1. If something else changes the type so that it’s not fire, you don’t get the bonus, and the bonus doesn’t happen more than once.
A while back Rabit mentioned that he was thinking of further accessories to the game that might make the tracking of effects easier. I don’t have a finished solution in mind, but occassionally think about a matrix of heroes/cards versus attributes that would allow one to note if a type of damage had been set or a buff/decrease had been applied.
If we had such a thing, than I suppose the difference in thinking here would be about whether or not that matrix of effects got reset before each turn or not – whether or not effects were sustained across turn barriers or reapplied.