Iron Legacy's Vigilance

Other Games SotM Game Engine
1

Hi, folks. Spent a while with the game now and sort of lurking here, learning all sorts of interesting things. Great place!

I'm after another sort of clarification or general idea of how people play certain circumstances. I really would like to contribute to the Statistics Project (awesome work!), but not if I'm getting critical rulings wrong, obviously.

I recently got my hands on the Shattered Timelines and Rook City expansions (not easy in the UK!) so I'm still getting to grips with some of the heroes and villains. In this case, Iron Legacy, who is a…serious piece of work, to put it lightly.

Now, with his Vigilance card (The first time a player plays a hero card each turn, Iron Legacy deals that player's hero 2 projectile damage) I was wondering how it works/you rule it with regards to certain card's effects. I tried looking at Spiff's helpful guide and searching around the forum, but still wasn't quite sure.

For example, do you deal Iron Legacy's damage instantly, regardless of the effect the hero's card may have or are there special instances?

I ask because I had a game that included Mr. Fixer and Tempest, the former with Grease Gun and the latter with Ball Lightning.

In the case of Grease Gun, it prevents non-hero targets dealing damage…but does it do it instantly or does Iron Legacy slip on it while just about managing to whack Mr. Fixer in the process? :grin:

With Ball Lightning, I can see the case that the damage is done first, then you may destroy ongoing cards compared to something like Into The Stratosphere, where you can do the effect and then the damage. Doesn't really help Tempest but then IL is pretty eeeevil.

I'm sure there are other things that never came up, but it would help me to get a sense of how to rule these and other instances. Thanks in advance!

2

The damage is dealt before the card's effect is resolved. So yes, even damage prevention cards do not save you from Vigilance's damage.

3

Damn, that is evil. :open_mouth:

Thanks!

4

Yeah, if something reacts in response to a card being played, it does so before that card's effect - for example, the Informant from the Chairman's deck causes the villain to play a card whenever a hero plays a card. This will happen even if the hero card played is a nuke that will be enough to destroy the Informant.

If something acts in response to a hero using a power (for example, that toxic drug of Spite's), the power's effect gets to finish before the reaction kicks off.

5

Hmm, that's useful to know. Thanks!

I know IL has an Ongoing that heals him whenever a hero uses a power, which I assume something like Visionary's Mental Divergence would overcome.

6

Yep, Visionary can nuke the ongoing card and it won't get a chance to do anything because it'll be gone by the time comes for it to trigger :).

7

Is that confirmed anywhere? 

Not to start another massive debate here, but It could be worth the clarification.

Why does "when a card is played" trigger before the cards effect resolves. But for "when you use a power" trigger only resolves after the power resolves?  Does that not seem inconsistant?

The rule of thumb has been that for consecutive/overlapping triggers, the newest trigger is always resolved first. We have a few rulings to support that. So I would question if that is indeed true. I think IL would get the healing before Mental Divergence would blow up his Ongoing.

Anyone have thoughts on this or can show me what I am missing?

8

The Bio-Eng and Toxic Seaweed ruling. First, fully resolve Bio-Eng, then see if Toxic Seaweed is still around.

9

It would be nice to have a clarification/general consensus. Obviously, I'd be deferring to far more advanced players like you guys. I can see other related examples and things discussed elsewhere, so I will have a nose around when I have a bit more free time otherwise.

10

I think I read a ruling similar that if Omnitron X uses the power to destroy Toxic Seaweed, Omnitron won't take damage for using a power. I can't find the offical ruling, but heres a link referencing it.

I do agree with you Foote, why do you not play the card first, apply the text, then resolve in play triggers. 

11

The ruling is question #6 here for anyone that missed it:

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/33171

12

There are two competing rulings on whether or not the original card takes affect before or after a trigger.

https://greaterthangames.com/comment/25353#comment-25353

13

[quote="dpt"]

 

Pydro wrote:
The Bio-Eng and Toxic Seaweed ruling. First, fully resolve Bio-Eng, then see if Toxic Seaweed is still around.

 

The ruling is question #6 here for anyone that missed it:https://greaterthangames.com/comment/33171

[/quote]

#7 on this implies to me that you can blow up the ongoing with a card before it hits you back. The card hits the table before the effect goes off. I think the Reflexes ruling was sort of a "Oh whoops, we don't want ExPat to turn off her whole deck" thing rather than a ruling that sets the rule.

 

So I would go with not getting hit back.

14

Thanks for pointing those out. I totally missed the Bio-Eng / Seaweed ruling! I was so focused on the Solar Flare issue when Ronway made that post.

Pydro you are correct. We have a few rulings on this subject that are totally at odds with eachother between Seaweed, Pos/Neg Energy, and the Expat/fowls.

I do not have the EE edition. Anyone mind posting the current text for Seaweed for me? 

 

15

I skimmed this topic and didn't notice anyone putting a reason why you can use a power and not trigger power effects, but playing cards trigger.

The reason being, is a Hero has not used a power until the effects of the power has actually activated. Just saying "I'm going to use Squall" doesn't mean you have used the power, however once you heat all the non-hero targets for 1 projectile, you have used a power.

As for playing cards, the moment you put the card into a play area, the card has been played. Thus causing the interruption before the effects of the card just played can take effect.

 

Edit: Toxic Seaweed:

Whenever a hero uses a power, deal that hero (H) minus 1 toxic damage.

At the end of the environment turn, 1 player may discard their hand to destroy this card.

1 Like
16

Interesting, I was kinda confused by this, so a card enters play before you play the card (apply text) right?

EDIT: Actually, I'm probably wrong as I always thought a card hasn't been played till the text has been applied. My mistake.

17

A card enters played and played at the same time, triggering off any effect that triggers from a card being played and entering play. But they are triggered before the card text becomes active. However after the ruling where the Negative Energy Field can deal damage to the target that was just played, I am beginning to wonder if increases and reduction to damage on a card just played will still apply, as it is static. Mainly because of the case for targets that have DR, it doesn't make much sense for them to get hit. Sadly I didn't start thinking about that until after Kantcon was over, so I won't see Christopher to ask this until next years Kantcon.

18

Ah Ronway you beat me to it. I was going to ask if that was a possibility to explain the ruling. Cool, that makes sense to me. 

19

I personally don't consider a card to have been played before the text resolves, because the rulings do conflict, I think it's better of Hairtrigger Reflexes doesn't immediately shut down The Matriarch, and it makes more sense to me that powers and card plays should work the same way than that they shouldn't.

20

I think I recall Christopher saying when Rook City needs a reprint, that he will figure out a way to make it that Fowls will still play a card, even with Hair Triggers Reflex in play. Meaning it should still be played that way, even if the card interactions don't work like that right now. Speaking of which, I hear Rook City is going to be reprinted soon, so we should be hearing about that and a few other changes soon.

Edit: I am curious, is there a reason as to why you think two different things should function the same?