Isolated Hero and Incapacitated Abilities

Other Games SotM Game Engine
21

Yes, as per the defitions of "Hero", "Hero Card", "Hero Character Card", and "Hero Target" in the Enhanced Edition glossary, hero character cards are not hero cards and are not part of hero decks.  It is true that the definition of a "Character Card", which I had not noticed until dypaca pointed it out suggests that hero character cards are hero cards, which seems to contradict the wording of the previous 4 definitions.

dypaca, as for your other questions, hero targets would still include hero character cards even if they are not hero cards because the definition of a hero target is "any target that is also a hero card or a hero character card.  If a card affects non-hero targets, it can affect any targets that are not hero cards or hero character cards".  The defintions of "Villain", "Villain Card", "Villain Characer Card", and "Villain Target" follow the pattern of their hero counterparts, which would mean that non-hero cards would include villain cards (but not villain character cards) and environment cards, so no, the character cards would not be shut down by Ground Pound, for example.

Thematically, Isolated Hero makes no sense at all, because if the hero were truly isolated from the rest of the fight, either that hero or all of the other heros would also be isolated from the villain.  It's hard to imagine a situation in which the heros are completely isolated from each other, but are in no way isolated from any of the same villains or environment features.

Everything I've found in the rules so far, with the notable exception of the defition of "Character Card", as pointed out by dypaca, suggests that character cards are not part of decks.  Aside from everything I've already pointed out, there is also the fact that in the Enhanced Edition component list, it separately lists 10 hero character cards and 400 hero cards, and then goes on to say that each hero deck contains 40 cards.  If you look at spiff's card list pdf (http://www.spiffworld.com/sotm/files/sotm_card_info.pdf), you can count the cards in the hero decks as 40 and see that they don't include hero character cards.

phantaskippy, I have not ordered a replacement deck, but a hero is not playable without both a hero character card and a hero deck, so it would be nice for hero character cards to be included with the replacement deck orders.  That doesn't necessarily mean that the hero character card is part of a hero deck in gameplay terms, however... it could simply be included as a "bonus".

dypaca, if you believe I'm trying to twist the rules to a certain outcome, then you have the wrong impression of me.  I'm simply trying to resolve cognitive dissonance so that I can be confident that I'm playing the game correctly, and I don't particularly care which interpretation turns out to be correct, so long as I can have confidence in it.  The bulk of the evidence supports the interpretation that I'm arguing for, but I agree that it's not clearly correct, which is why I'm hoping to see some official clarification that resolves the contradictory wordings in the rules.

22

I don't mean to sound too critical.  I enjoy doing very technical analysis of the rules as well.  And I do admit that there are rules like putting a destroyed card in the trash which mean non-character cards.  However I think it is reaching to say the card representing the hero is not a hero card.  Accepting that they are hero targets does clear up most of the problems caused by your interpretation, but that still leaves Ground Pound which stops non-hero cards from dealing damage.  That will be all damage dealers except Unity's bots if the heros are non-hero cards.  Plus it doesn't make any sense to me that you would be isolated from Legacy's Inspiring Presence, but not Legacy.

The question of exact status of character cards has come up before with the whole issue of whether the operative is a villain card.  While Isolated Hero and Ground Pound are the only cards I can think of which call out hero/non-hero cards, there are many abilities which call out villain cards.  (and I'm quite certain they are all supposed to apply to the Operative).

23

While looking through my decks for cards which specifically reference "villain cards", I found an interesting example.  The original text for Tempest's "Into the Stratosphere" reads "Choose 1 villain card in play and put it on top of the villain deck...."  In this case, "villain card" is clearly not meant to include villain character cards, but the Enhanced Edition text reads "Select 1 non-indestructible villain card in play, other than a character card, and put it on top of the villain deck...."  This could just be redundant wording for clarity, but in light of the Character Card definition you pointed out earlier, I think it's more likely that the authors had originally conceived of hero character cards and villain characted cards as not being hero cards and villain cards, respectively, but then at some later time changed their minds without updating all of the rules text to match.  This would explain the confusion and contradictory wordings we've identified so far.  Unfortunately, if this is the case, it casts doubt on the meaning of all cards that mention hero cards or villain cards, because they could have been written with different ideas of whether or not those terms included character cards.

24

I'm happy to put something into the pending rules questions for this, but would like to get a concise question drafted from someone rather than trying to do it myself.

25

Hero character card: The "main"  card for a hero. 

Thats straight out of the glossary, quotation marks and all. Common, this is quite clear that the character card is a hero card. They even go as far as to expressly call it the main hero card.  

26

The character card is definitely not a hero card, but it is definitely still the hero, so they still can't affect anyone through an Isolated Hero. 

 

Edit: Nevermind, the Deck has a uniform back, so incapped folks can still do stuff to isolated heroes. Seems like they shouldn't but there's nothing RAW that goes against that.

27

Actually, this should probably be "1) Do hero character cards count as hero cards, and does a hero character card count as a card from hero's deck?"

28

Agreed.

29

Actually looking at the definitions I have to agree that the way Isolated Hero is worded and the definitions from the the rule books, Isolated Hero would not stop any hero character card from affecting the isolated hero.  They could be affected by incaps and base powers.

I expect that is not the intention, but if you just look at the definitions then there isn't much room to say otherwise.  Hero Character cards do not have the uniform back, so they are not part of the deck, and thus are not a hero card.

Gah.  Guess I should have read what this thread was about better before I commented on it.

Hopefully we get this cleared up, I can't imagine that is what they were intending, but who knows, maybe it was intentional.

Plus by the definitions Hero card and effect of another hero's deck are the same thing, which makes the wording redundant, can't imagine they intended base powers to work.

30

Ground-Pound specifically states non-hero cards. It does not say targets like grease gun does. So you are in fact saying that playing ground pound prevents the hero character card from dealing damage. There is no way that can be right, but that's what you are implying. 

31

I haven't found a specific definition for non-hero cards.  It might be that non-hero cards are any cards which are not hero cards, in which case, according to the definitions, you are right, and hero character cards would be prevented from doing damage by Ground Pound but hero cards would not, which may not be the intent.  There is a defintion for non-hero targets, however: "any targets that are not hero cards or hero character cards".  We could therefore extrapolate that "non-hero cards" means "any cards which are not hero cards or hero character cards", in which case Ground Pound would not shut down hero character cards, or that "non-hero cards" follows the pattern of "hero cards" within the scope of "any cards that are not hero cards or hero character cards", in which case Ground Pound would not shut down any character cards.  It should be noted that extrapolation is generally considered bad practice, but without anything concrete to refer to, there's not much choice.

32

I would assume that non-hero cards is a category, it is not the same as saying any card that is not a hero card.  There is no direct definition of non-hero cards in the glossary, but when speaking of non-hero targets the glossary states that non-hero targets are any targets that are not hero cards or hero character cards.

Again I think the way the definitions and Isolated hero are worded is not intentional but an oversight, but under the current wording and definitions I don't see how it can be ruled any other way.  

33

So, I guess we also need:

4) What is the definition of a non-hero card?

34

Thanks, arenson9.

I think there are 4 key questions (edited):

1) Do hero character cards count as hero cards, and does a hero character card count as a card from hero's deck?

2) For cards which restirct effects e.g. Isolated Hero, do abilities that mention allowing players to draw/play a card, e.g. Fleet of Foot and many incapacitated abilities, count as affecting the cards or merely the player?

3) For cards which restirct effects e.g. Isolated Hero, do abilities that change damage types, modify damage amounts or redirect damage from one target to another, affect the source of the damage, it's (pre- / post- redirect) target, or both?

4) What is the definition of a non-hero card?

 

Foote, "hero card" is a specific game term, and "the main card for a hero" doesn't specifically use the term "hero card".

35

Really?

36

Wouldn’t the Chairman answer some of these questions? If the Chairman is killed, he is put in the villain trash, shuffled into the villain deck if it runs out of cards, and played from the villain deck. None of this would happen if the card wasn’t part of the villain deck.

37

The Chairman is the only villain to do such, is he not?

38

Yes, but only becauuse the game ends with the others, and Omnitron specifically says remove from the game. So, technically, everyone would, but there is something else preventing it.

39

Not necessarily. The Chairman may just be an exception to the norm, rather than the single baseline showing what would otherwise happen.

40

Except for the fact that the Chairman doesn’t state what happens to it when it is killed like the Ennead or Omnitron. To me at least, this would mean it just follows the “normal” rules are villain cards. This would be the “normal” rule even though it only applies to this one case, and it needed to be pointed out by Christopher.