In a 4 hero game, 3 heroes were incapacitated, the last active hero has Isolated Hero on him, can other incapacitated heroes let the Isolated Hero play a card, use a power, draw a card?
Anytime I have played it and that happens i've always went with they cannont use anything that would directly effect the hero, since a incapped hero is still a hero card.
/agree
Yes. And this is why Miss Information makes me cry.
/deals self two psychic damage
Couldn't Isolated Hero protect from damage Fanatic deals to someone when she puts her "extra power" ongoing on them (assuming Fanatic's card is on them before Isolated Hero)?
Or does Isolated Hero cut the hero off from ongoing effects already in play?
I would say that the hero can't benefit from Embolden (I think that's the card) because they can't gain the benefit from any effect from any other hero. So you wouldn't get an extra power use until the Isolated Hero effect was removed. I suppose occasions on which this card is actually helpful would be, for example, when Haka goes on a Rampage - you can't be affected by other hero effects therefore Haka can't hit you. Or the reverse, if it's Haka who's Isolated - he can hit all the bad guys but none of the heroes :). Similarly, heroes who help out by nerfing the bad guys rather than buffing their friends wouldn't be affected much, eg Tachyon using Hypersonic Assault to stop non-heroes from dealing damage. It isn't an effect that can land on heroes, therefore it goes off, but still helps the heroes because the bad guys can't hit them for a round :).
If you look closely at incapacitated abilities, some say "One player may ..." and some say "One hero may ...". Considering that the text of Isolated Hero states "That hero and that hero's cards cannot affect or be affected by any hero card or effect from another hero deck.", I think of the incapacitated abilities that say "One player may ..." as usable, as they target the player rather than the hero.
Furthermore, the definition of a deck in the glossary of the Enhanced Edition rulebook is "The set of all cards associated with a specific hero, villian, or environment. All cards in a deck have a uniform back." This description clearly doesn't include hero character cards, as they don't have the same back. Also, character cards are never shuffeled in, drawn from, or otherwise mixed with cards in a deck, and a single deck can be used interchangeably with different hero character cards, i.e. standard versus promitional heros. Furthermore, the definition of a hero card is "any card from a hero deck", which would therefore not include hero character cards. So, I read Isolated hero to mean that the hero character card that Isolated Hero is placed next to and all the cards in that hero's deck are blocked from other hero's cards, but NOT from other hero character cards. By this literal interpretation, even incapacitated abilities that affect other heros are usable, both to and from isoated heros, as long as they don't directly affect any hero cards from either hero's decks.
Now, let's look at the specific example of Chrono Ranger's incapacitated abilities. They are:
* One player may play a card now.
* One hero may use a power now.
* One hero may deal 1 target 1 projectile damage now.
Playing a card could be interpreted as directly affecting the card played or as granting the ability for a card to be played, and then the playing of a hero card is a separate action without any direct connection to the incapacitated ability. The wording of the first incapacitated ability makes it clear that the latter interpretation is correct in this case.
Allowing a hero to deal damage to a target clearly doesn't involve any of that hero's cards, but of course, that damage could not target a hero card belonging to another hero. So, for example, Chrono Hunter could not allow an isolated Tachyon to destroy one of Unity's Bee Bots, but it could allow her to reduce a 2 hp unity to 1 hp so that the players would have the choice of choosing the bee bot for some damage that chooses highest hp targets. This restriction is not a restiction on the incapacitated ability, however... it's just a limitation on the isolated hero's ability to damage other hero's hero cards.
The use of a power could be interpreted as directly activating a power card or as granting the hero the ability to use a power that would then be followed by the hero's use of that ability to activate a power. In the case of the former interpretation, only the innate powers on hero character cards would be legitimate choices, but in the case of the latter, any power on any card would be fair game. It's not clear which interpretation is correct, but I read it as the latter.
There are a few incapacitated abilities which can directly affect hero cards. For example, Omnitron X has "Select a target. Reduce damage dealt to that target by 1 until the start of your next turn." This ability could not be used by isolated heros on other heros' hero cards, or by heros on isolated heros' hero cards, but could be used on any hero character cards. Note that this damage reduction is reducing damage dealt TO a target and not damage being dealt FROM a target, or else the damage could be reduced because it would be affecting a villain target instead of a hero target. Another example is Unity's "The hero target with the lowest hp regains 2 hp." This would be completely shut down if the hero target with the lowest hp was a Visionary's Decoy Projection and either Unity or Visionary were affect by Isolated Target, as the Decoy Projection could not be affected by the hp gain and Unity's ability could not affect any target with more hp.
One other thing to note about Isolated Hero that may not be an issue for incapaciated abilities is that redirected damage is defined as affecting not affecting the original target of the damage, so it stands to reason that damage redirection abilities can be used on damage from villain or environment targets to divert damage away from hero cards affected by Isolated Hero, but it's less clear whether or not damage could be redicted to hero cards affected by Isolated Hero. However, I interpret this as the redirection ability affects the source of the damage, but does not affect either the target the damage is redirected from or the target the damage is redirected to.
The intention of the card is very clear cut. If you are an isolated hero, nothing coming from any other player/hero can effect you.
I know you want to make a distinction between the cards saying "player" and "hero", but that semantic leep there just does not hold up. You are completley shut off from everything outside of yourself and the villain/environment when Isolated.
Lets say you are playing Argent Adept. You have 1HP and Miss Info just Isolated you. Your friend plays Unity and throws out Stealth Bot. You would NOT be able to redirect damage from Argent Adept to Stealth Bot while he is Isolated.
Lets take the reverse. Say Unity is Isolated with Stealth Bot in play. Stealth Bot would NOT be able to redirect any damage from any other hero or hero target except for those owned by Unity.
That is the entire point of the card. Incap abilities would work no differently, regardless of what they are.
Of course the text doesn't say "a hero may play a card" - it's the player that does all the card stuff. It's the hero that uses the power, but the hero doesn't wander around drawing and playing cards from their own deck!
I assume that's the reason behind the different wording of player/hero effects, because it would be incorrect to refer to heroes drawing/playing, or to players using powers (unless you're a superhero in real life, in which case why aren't you out there saving the multiverse instead of playing card games? ;)), but I agree with Foote here that it's clear what the card means. No effects from any other heroes. Nothing.
That may be the intent, but if that's the case, I'll expect to see some official errata, since it's clearly not the rules as written. Also, even if it were a given that there can be no interaction between hero character cards, regardless of the text of the incapacitated abilities, when one of them is isolated, I still think that redirecting damage dealt by villain or environment targets would be fair game. It makes more sense that a redirection ability affects the damage source than any of the potential targets that damage might be dealt to.
When a hero deals damage due to the effect of another hero's card, that hero is being affected.
And that hero does not exist outside of their character card. the hero card is involved in everything that hero does. when it deals damage the card itself is considered the source of the damage, so if Jim Brooks tries to cause Wraith to deal damage, Wraith's character card is affected by Jim Brook's character card.
Therefore it can't happen under the rules of isolated hero.
If heroes could act without their character card being involved Chrono Ranger could just have someone not involved in the fight do the damage. The reason that can't happen is the only heroes that can do anything in a game are the ones with hero character cards in play. Their character card is responsible for anything that hero does. That character card 'is' that hero. There is no seperation between a hero and the hero character card.
If the source of the misdirection is from a hero card or ability, no you could not redirect villain and enviro damage. But if the environment redirects villain damage to the isolated hero (however that might occur) then that's fair game.
phantaskippy, I completly agree with everything you just wrote, except for this sentence:
Foote, can you reference any official ruling about that? I still disagree with your interpretation, and haven't been able to find any rulings to support either of us.
The reason behind the fact that you probably can't find any official ruling on it is this is the only thread that has been brought up about it, and the only time someone has openly opposed what has been previously said.
It expressly says the isolated hero can't "affect or be affected by any hero card or effect from another hero deck".
Ok. That's a direct quote. Can you please point to an effect a player does that doesn't come from that players hero deck? Then we can be on the same page.
Well dwetuski's claim above is that the character card itself is not a hero card or part of a hero deck, and therefor not strictly covered by "any hero card or effect from another hero deck".
I think he is just seeing what he wants to see though. It's true that the rulebook definition of "hero card" and "hero deck" describe the non-character cards, but the definition of character card also describes it as being 'of a deck' and notes that they are different from "the rest of their deck".
Not to mention all the common sense arguments. I mean, dwetuski, wouldn't that also mean that the character cards are 'non-hero cards' and thus shut down by ground pound or grease gun? Or for that matter wouldn't they then be unaffected by all the things which damage hero targets?
A hero character card is also considered a hero card if that's the main issue here.
The Character card of a hero is a part of that hero's deck.
Even if it isn't a hero card, it is part of the deck. The incapacitated side of a hero character card is a part of that hero's deck. The effect of a hero character card is an effect of a hero deck.
I don't really get the idea that a character card isn't part of the deck. If you order a replacement deck, do you get a character card with it?
Thematically, how do you justify a situation where a hero is unable to be affected by his teammates except for occasionally when he isn't? Doesn't make any sense to me.
An isolated hero is isolated. Not "this hero can't be affected unless I can flange it to say he can".
If the isolated hero is not one of the incapped, he didn't make it to the death-trap party in time.