Isolated Hero

Other Games SotM Game Engine
21

Honestly, with these and the Stun-Bolt and the Twist the Ether examples…I could see those going either way possibly. Those are not exactly as clear cut. Even I am on the fence about being OK with TtE affecting the damage heading towards an Isolated Hero.

Here is my core thoughts on the argument:

My interpretation of the card very much hinges on my idea of the thematic intent and the percieved mechanical intent. For me, the card is doing exactly what its name implies…Isolating a hero. The intent there, I believe, is to try and artificially create the feeling of having just your one hero Vs. the Villain in the Environment chosen. It wants to simulate that 1v1 feeling, but has to do it within the tabletop environment where obviously you as the player are not really alone. To this end, my interpretation really is guided to encompass as much of that feeling as possible. This would mean that Stun-Bolts and Twist the Ether and other similar effects coming from other hero cards/decks should be viewed as totally non-existant from the Isolated Heros perspective, like they were never there. And that should be fitting. You are Isolated, after all. It is just you. No friends around to change the complexion of the situation or battlefield for you. You must do it yourself – alone – or die trying…

I know we both love arguing about rules and stuff. You always make me rethink my initial stances. But maybe arguing semantics is not in either of our best interests in this case. The thematic intent of this card is one of the single coolest villan effects in the entire game. I find it very sad that no one else really sees it that same way  :slightly_frowning_face:

22

I'm getting a bit confused here trying to sort this out.

 

The Isolated Hero card text states:

That Hero and that Hero's cards cannot affect or be affected by any Hero card or effect from another deck.

So If Crono is Isolated his cards cannot affect the effect of another hero's deck.  By any Means (by my argument) does not affect a hero card.  But it does affect the effect of a hero card, even if it is secondarily.  Take Thermal Shockwave, if By any Means is allowed to increase damage to the villain the second part of the card effect will be affected by that increase.

So I'm going back on that part and saying that an Isolated Ranger's By any means can't affect the amount of damage dealt to a villain target by another hero's deck effect.

However; an Isolated hero targetting a villain that has By any Means on it, played by a non-Isolated Crono-Ranger would not have the same problem, since the card does not state that the Isolated Hero's card effects cannot be affected by another hero's cards.  The damage you deal is not a card, it is an effect, so you should be able to benefit from By any Mans in that situation.

Gah.

It also makes me wonder what it means that your hero cannot be affected.  Does your hero exist outside of their cards?

23

What? No I think you are reading that sentence wrong.

When it says that a Heros cards cannot affect any other hero card or effect, it is talking about the effects on the heros cards. That is more than a stretch to say otherwise. Thats grabbing at semantic straws

It also makes me wonder what it means that your hero cannot be affected.  Does your hero exist outside of their cards?
This is why I think my "thematic intent" argument should be given consideration. It is extremely vauge whether being indirectly affected by another heros effects still counts as being "affected". Take the thematic intent of the card into consideration, and the picture starts to become more clear what >G wants you to do with it.

 

24

Ahhh…all this arguing…her plan is working!

25

A card effect is an effect of a card, not the card itself.  Twist the Ether does not affect Thermal Shockwave the card, but when the power is used it affects the effect of the card.

That's why card and card effect are listed differently.

At least that's how I see it.

 

I think we need an official explanation of the intricasies of Isolated Hero, a quick answer won't even cover half the possible interactions of this card.

26

How does a hero card ever "affect" something else in the game without its text? No way dude, calling shenanigans on that one. When you are talking about a hero card affecting other things, it is refering to the effect that card has to do the affecting in the first place. A blank card does not exert an effect on anything in the game.

A quick answer could very well clear up every possible interaction. "Isolated Heros ignore all other hero cards and effects like they are not even in play" would solve everything (and coincidently be in line with how I see the cards true intent, of course). 

It doesn't have to be this complicated. The fact that it IS this complicated should you that there is probably a more correct way of looking at it. Simple is better.

 

 

27

My way of dealing with it was simple:  A card affects a hero if the effect on the card affects that hero directly or universally.

That's why I went with By any Means working through isolated, because the effect affects a villain, and only heroes as a byproduct of its effect on that villain.

The only reason I'm reconsidering is the level of interaction between that increased damage and a card like Thermal Shockwave.

 

28

It explicitly prevents other heroes from being affected by your cards.  I'm inclined to agree with phantaskippy's interpretation - it only prevents direct influence.  To put it another way, if the Isolated Hero picks up a rock and sets it down at a more convenient height, another hero can therefore pick up the rock without having to bend down; the isolated hero just can't actually hand the rock to them.  Isolated Hero does not prevent the victim from picking up a random rock and setting it down in a random place, even if that might benefit another hero down the line, because they're not actively affecting the hero, just the rock.

29

If you benefit from an effect you are affected by it. Explain the error in my sentence to me. Feel free to keep ignoring that in favor of playing useless semantic games though.

30

I would like to hear your rational for why the wording of "affected" should include directly affecting but exclude indirectly affecting. I do not see any sound basis for excluding indirect effects from this. Maybe you can change my mind. 

31

Hey, folks? Let's keep it civil. :slightly_smiling_face:

32

The way I've always interpreted and played it is that the Isolated hero exists in a total vacuum.  Nothing that they do can have any impact on the experience of the other heroes, and nothing the other heroes do can have any impact on them.

 

any rules/questions are resolved this way (though you are of course free to make up your own interpretations):

For Non-isolated heroes:   The (H) value stays the same.  In all other respects, the Isolated Hero exists outside of their sphere of influence.  none of their cards, powers, ongoings, redirections, or choices can have ANY influence.  The isolated hero takes full damage, even if the villain is hypersoniced or stunned, and gets no bonus from things like bounties.

thematically, I resolve this as the Isolated hero has been detained, delayed, or ambushed.

The Isolated Hero may reduce the HP of the villain, because they are still attempting to re-unite with their friends.  If the villain is reduced to 0, all of the villain cards become a moot point, and it is assumed that they re-unite.  

In the event that Ms. Information ever gets any sort of last-second reprieve, or omnitron-like ability to stick around until all diversions have been handled, then Isolated hero would persist.

 

For the Isolated Hero:

Until the card is destroyed, they exist entirely on their own.  If they are the last one standing, the other heroes cannot use incap. powers on them (though they may still provide indirect aid by destroying ongoings/environments).  If they go down, they may not use direct incap powers on other heroes, as ongoings played on heroes persist after incapacitation- (see People V. Plague Rat).  They may provide indirect aid in the form of destroying non-hero ongoings/environments (or any other incap that does not proivide a direct benefit to heroes, or acts upon the villain).

 

33

Because if you take any action that affects a hero secondarily you get anything that a hero can do other than draw cards and play self buffs.

If an Isolated Hero defeats the vilain, do the other heroes win, because I would think ending the game affects a hero.

If I discard four cards to destroy Concealed betrayal that affects the other heroes, so can I not discard to meet a cards destruction requirement?

If a non-hero card deals damage to the lowest HP target and the isolated hero is tied for the lowest HP, can they take that damage?  Taking that damage would effect the other heroes because one of them isn't taking that damage.

Destroying any card by card effect or damage dealt will affect the other heroes i the game.

Damaging The villain brings the game closer to a victory, that affects the other heroes.

Being in the game raises any (H) based effects, thereby affecting the other heroes.

 

34

"Cannot" is an absolute effect.

I agree with Braithwhite.

35

I don't see where A affects B, B affects C is equivalent to A affects C.

 

If I affect a villain cards ability to deal daamge I have not affected a hero card.

If that villain is unable to damage a hero because of it, that effect is still only affecting the Villain card.  It is causing the Villain to not affect the other hero, not causing me to affect that hero.

36

 

I'm very interested in seeing your thought processes about the card.  Could you please give a breakdown of how you interpret it, preferably with examples?

I'm not being sarcastic or condescending (and i apologize if it seems that way).

37

The game ends, either way.

If I discard four cards to destroy Concealed betrayal that affects the other heroes, so can I not discard to meet a cards destruction requirement?

You aren't affecting the other heroes. You are affecting only Concealed Betrayal.

If a non-hero card deals damage to the lowest HP target and the isolated hero is tied for the lowest HP, can they take that damage?  Taking that damage would effect the other heroes because one of them isn't taking that damage.

Yes, they can. You're reaching.

Destroying any card by card effect or damage dealt will affect the other heroes i the game.Damaging The villain brings the game closer to a victory, that affects the other heroes.

Doesn't matter. All the heroes are working towards the same objective. Being isolated means that that one hero is doing it alone, without the benefit of allies.

Being in the game raises any (H) based effects, thereby affecting the other heroes.

Nonsequitur. H is set when you decide how many are going up against the villain. Nothing alters H once the game has begun.

38

Not quite sure what you are saying here. I still want to know why "Affecting" must nessessarily include directly affecting but must exclude indirectly affecting. Isn't the word "affecting" more of an umbrella term that could possibly take both into account? I do not see why it is nessessary to exclude indirect effects. The card sure does not make that exception, so I am just wondering where it is coming from.

Would you be happy with saying the Isolated Hero doesn't win? This is out of the scope of Isolated Hero. The Villain being reduced to 0 HP is not an effect coming from a hero's card or deck, so Isolated Hero has no impact during the win condition. If you really wanted to go that route, Isolated Hero gets removed when the Villain dies. There you go.

Again, that effect (the one forcing you to discard cards or face a penalty) is not coming from any Heros card or deck, so Isolated Hero again does not come into play. 

Sure. You still need to follow the instruction on the non-hero card. Isolated Hero does not change that. It is only a simulated 1v1 senario, obviously when you are at a table with other people, the players have to decide who counts as "lowest" HP and "2nd lowest" HP if they are tied. You doing that though is not mandated by an effect coming from a hero deck or card, but rather a nessesity of the game system. 

But the whole reason why the Villain can't hit the Isolated hero is a result of an effect coming from another heros card/deck. Thats the difference. What is the point of being Isolated if you can still be aided by effects from your teamates? Thats not much of an Isolation.

39

The Villain being reduced to 0 HP is not an effect coming from a hero's card or deck

Neither is a villain dealing damage.  A Villain dealing damage is solely an effect of a villain deck.  Why can't an Isolated hero affect that?  

 

My view of the card is that the heroes are not working together anymore.  They aren't on opposite sides of the globe, because If Haka can punch the same person that Mr. Fixer can punch, then they are in the same area.

I don't know if anyone is a Battletech player, but the rules for being seperated from your unit are a big influence on my stance here.  You lose all bonuses associated with working as a team  It doesn't require anything more than losing communication with your allies.

You are near each other, but you can't coordinate your efforts anymore.  To apply that to Sentinels you would take away any impact that being with the rest of your team would grant you.  Legacy can't galvanize you or Bolster you, Visionary can't enlighten you or twist your ether, Fixer's Salvage yard is not in reach, and you can't hear Adept's Righteous tunes.

Effects that hit a villain like stun bolts would still work, because a stun bolt is harming the villain, the same villain the isolated hero and non-isolated heroes are fighting.  If Haka Ground Pounds and knocks all the villains and Environment stuff silly, they don't only suffer dissorientation when they aren't looking at the isolated hero.  If Wraith Jabs the villain in the throat, it is the same throat of the same villain everyone else is fighting.

That's why I don't think secondary affects would be stopped.  Both parties can affect the villain, they just can't directly help each other.

The heroes can still support each other through secondary measures, I mean Aragorn helped Frodo and Sam when the army of Mordor and the Black Gate were between them.  (that's right I went LOTR)

As for By any Means, my thematic interpretation of that bounty is that Crono is running down the villain, and they are unable, due to his interference to normally defend themselved, creating better opportunities for other heroes to dawanted persons who are not yet convicted.mage them, or at the least that because of him they have legal ground to bend rules they would otherwise follow in pursuit of the villain, meaning the villain lacks normal protection afforded most wanted persons that have not been convicted.

40

A single game can represent a lot more than one single battle on a given day. They work on many more levels than that. Using that assumption as your basis for interpretation seems odd

I still don't understand your exclusion of indirect effects. The wording indicates no such exclusion. But we are now going in circles. 

 

Edit:

You are near each other, but you can't coordinate your efforts anymore.

Maybe we just have very different definitions of what "Isolated" means.

Isolated: adjective

1.far away from other places, buildings, or people; remote.

synonyms: remote, out of the way, outlying, off the beaten track/path, secluded,lonely, godforsaken, far-flung, inaccessible, cutoff, incommunicado,

"Near each other" does not seem like a great fit if you want to look at this card from a thematic standpoint.