"Whenever a Hero Target deals a non-Hero Target damage, that Hero may also deal Setback 2 damage of the same type".
I don't know what the current wording of Jack Handle is, but I'm pretty sure it still changes the targeting on all of Mr. Fixer's attempts to deal damage. So as far as I can see there's a loop where Mr. Fixer damages a non-Villain Target, this allows him to attempt to damage Setback, but actually damage all non-Villain Targets, which allows him to attempt to damage Setback, etc.
There's also a less infinite version of this combo using Dual Crowbars and Silver Lining instead of Jack Handle.
I'm sure we will get a ruling that it doesn't, but as far as how it is worded, yes, it would create an infinite loop.
Actually, you could loop until Setback was dead just on Friendly fire itself with crowbars. There has to be some crazy thing you can do with Fixed Point.
Well, my problem is that by that logic, you might be able to say that ANY attack with Jack Handle multiplies infinitely: you hit target X, it splits into hitting X, Y, and Z, but then that split attack on X splits, the split attack on Y splits, and the split attack on Z splits... and then repeat that recursively as much as you like.
Which obviously isn't how the card is intended to be played, so I think we can rule that damage that's already been modified by Jack Handle won't be modified again.
Given THAT, while I am not a game developer or anything, I would say.. You hit somebody while Jackhandle is in play. You can also hit Setback, via Friendly Fire. The original hit splits and hits all non-hero targets. The friendly-fired damage splits and hits all non-hero targets a second time, for 2. (Setback doesn't get unlucky tokens for this attack because he took no damage.)
For each of THOSE split damages, you can trigger Friendly Fire, dealing Setback 2 melee (or whatever) damage... except since this is "the same type", it's post jack-handle damage and thus won't split again. But it does give Setback the opportunity for a LOT of unlucky tokens (for an equal amount of damage, of course).
AFAIK, there's no such thing as post jack-handle damage for Fixer. He either has one, and it affects all his damage, or he doesn't. The thing is this is actually different from the Fixed Point thing, because instead of a single instance of damage being modified by two effects, it's a bunch of separate instances of damage.
I think probably the most straightforward errata would be to make Friendly Fire once per turn. It would preserve a lot of the basic functionality of the card (letting Setback drop his hit points below the tank's, bringing his unlucky pool up so that he can get better effects off, and so on), would still allow a strong combo with Mr. Fixer, but wouldn't be crazy and infinite.
Friendly Fire doesn't loop on itself, btw, and I don't think there's a very strong reason to do it either.
yeah, but with the crowbars you will kill Setback. Plus taking 3 damage (2, increased by 1 for the crowbars themselves) for 2 tokens isn't really worth it, imo.
You just need to add in fixed point and it wont matter, just like TtE on AZ with Fixed Point, infinite damage.
If you have Silver Lining in play even without fixed point you can drop Setback to 1 or 2 hp, and have a ton of tokens, then discard
Let's say you are at 25hp, you take 24 damage to get 16 tokens, while Fixer just dealt a villain 24 damage, then one more time you get smacked, to negative HP but with 18 tokens you are restored to 18hp.
That's a net loss of 7hp, for 27 damage to a villain target.
If you have cause and effect you stop at the 24 then on your turn play cause and effect discarding 15 tokens to deal 15 damage to a villain and yourself, but with 1 token left you end up at 1hp.
So if a villain is at 39hp or less they die, or you give up a bit of HP to do a ton of damage to a villain. That's a pretty good reason to do it.
No no no, it's like… okay, Mr. Fixer is fighting Baron Blade, who has two Blade Battalions out.
Pre jack-handle: He uses Strike to hit Baron Blade for 1 melee damage.
Post jack-handle: He deals 1 melee to Baron Blade and both Blade Battalions.
We agree that the Jack Handle's effect doesn't trigger on itself, right? That the damage he would deal to the blade battlions, by using strike on Baron Blade when he has a Jack Handle in play, doesn't ALSO split and hit every non-hero target? And then each instance of that split damage doesn't split again ad infinitum?
My proposal is that when Friendly Fire says "the same type", it's not just things like 'melee' or 'fire' but also things like 'already split by Jack Handle'. And thus, wouldn't be split again.
Which might not be the intent of the card! But it's a very plausible way to rule it that IMHO-elegantly closes the infinite loop without requiring actual text-changing errata like "the first time each turn". And also carries interesting consequences, like… if Tachyon used a Hypersonic Assault, and Setback choose to get hit by Friendly Fire, would he be unable to deal damage until the start of Tachyon's next turn?
But, yes, if by "type" they DO just mean "melee vs fire vs whatever", then I agree this is an infinite combo. Mr. Fixer gets ready to lay down some whup-ass on a horde of mooks, trips over Setback, and hilarity ensues.
It is like a redirection, not a triggered new damage. Instead of dealing damage to whatever target he would have you deal damage to all non-hero targets.
The inital use of strike is invalid, it doesn't go through. If Fixer tries to smack AZ when he has jackhandle out he won't hit him. The attack is changed from "Mr. Fixer deals 1 damage to AZ" to "Mr. Fixer deals one damage to all non-hero targets."
It would work with Setback's card because each time you dealt damage with jackhandle you could re-trigger Setback's Friendly fire, it would try to target Setback but instead target each non-hero target, allowing you to once again choose to deal setback damage, which would then be redirected to every non-hero target, allowing you to trigger the card again.
I keep looking at Friendly fire, and I keep being more and more amused at Tempest's face, and that flavor text.
There's not really a way to encode it into the rules, but what I would LIKE to happen is for the damage caused by Friendly Fire to not chain with itself in Mr. Fixer's case. Like, if he already dealt damage, then used Friendly Fire to deal more damage, that's it. No more. Just a case-specific errata. The thing is, it is SO situationally useful that -- besides that ONE exploitive corner case -- there's no balance reason for it to not be able to trigger multiple times per turn. I intentionally worded it that way; with 2 damage, it's a 1-1 trade of HP to tokens, unless you're using a (really rare) damage mitigation effect, so it's hard to come out ahead.
I feel like if you made it only able to trigger once per turn in ALL cases, it would undermine its inherent usefulness, which is the ability to burn through HP quickly to rapidly build up tokens. There's a reason Setback first appeared on Shock Rounds, after all, and that reason is THIS CARD. Obviously it can't stay in its current form, or Mr. Fixer can use the 1st-ed Wrest the Mind trick all over again.
My proposition would be a simple errata stating that Mr. Fixer, specifically, can only benefit from this card once per turn.
Well, say Mr. Fixer used Jack Handle fighting the Vengeful Five, except, whoops, tricky Ermine redirects the damage she would take to Legacy!
Jack Handle doesn't replace that damage Legacy took with even MORE damage to all non-hero targets, right? Because that damage has already been "jack handled", so to speak.
So, when Setback takes damage of "the same type", one COULD argue that it's like... weird redirection that doesn't actually take away the original damage. And also sets the damage to 2. But he gets damage of type "already jack handled", and so it doesn't get replaced again with more damage to all non-hero targets, just like redirected jack handle damage.
No, it's definitely a second instance of damage. But that would be a viable alternative errata: "damage dealt this way is not affected by Mr. Fixer's "Jack Handle" card."
That would imply that you are splitting the damage up, which is not something that is mechanically possible within the rules of Sentinels. Plus it wouldn't account for damage type, and -- because all instances of damage occur simultaneously -- would still feed the loop anyway.
Actually, here's my proposal: change the wording of Jack Handle. "Whenever Mr. Fixer would deal damage to exactly 1 non-hero target, deal that damage to all non-hero targets instead." It would get rid of the infinite loop, as well as the unintended Infection shenanigans. Plus it would make it so Friendly Fire could remain as written, and not have to be nerfed heavily or be erratad to mention a specific card.
I was trying to figure out how to word Friendly Fire so that it worked like Dual Crowbars, only dealing 2 damage instead of the same amount of damage. Since we've already resolved the Dual Crowbars / Jack Handle infinite loop, that would solve the problem without changing Friendly Fire significantly. Clearly, I was unsuccessful.