You just laid out the intent of the card.
Look guys, Rook City was the 1st expansion. I promise you that Mr Fixer was playtested a lot with the other RC villains, including Plauge Rat. Jack Handle and Infections? Trust me, it came up. Its been out for years. Its working as intended.
I don't think this is accuate. My understanding is that Jack Handle was meant to be an AoE attack, not defensive. It was supposed to turn Strike into Squall. Though I could be wrong.
As far as future development goes:
Don't design a card that has heroes hurt themselves without expecting shenanigans. (Sorry any sickness, disease, bad luck, etc effect)
Don't design a card that has heroes hurt other heros without expecting shenanigans. (Sorry any kind of mind control or confussion, bad luck effect)
Don't have a trigger off of damage that causes damage without expecting infinite shenanigans.
The should have just named the card shenanigans.
Yeah I acctually said this in my post: " Or is this some kind of recursive chain that you are thinking where the second part never gets resolved because of a loop in the first part? Yeah, I get how the look would work."
At least that takes three cards from three heroes and you really have to be aiming for this to happen as it requires Wrest to be played in a way counter to what it normally does. However play Fixer with Setback where those two cards come out and completely unintentionally and in the normal course of play you get a loop. So although it does exist is probably easier to fix. Jack Handle presents FUTURE problems is my point.
Most of the shenanigans aren't TOO bad -- as long as we keep in mind that cards that allow damage dealt to non-hero targets to trigger damage to hero targets will cause Jack Handle to freak out, we'll be fine.
For the current scenario, though, I think the easiest situation is to make Setback be the source of the damage for Friendly Fire. I hate to have to change it, after making such a BIG DEAL (mostly to my friends) about how I wrote the darn thing, but it looks like it's a necessary sacrifice.
Well then, ok. I still think its just brokeness and shenanigans waiting to happen though. I actually can't believe there wasn't an issue sooner. Well I mean Kismet may have been a problem but it was just minor enough that no one cared. Not according to what you are saying here though.
I'm a little curious about PR test. Was it "Oh thats odd, well I guess thats kind of cool, lets keep it" as opposed to "Yup that is absolutely why the card was made." Obviously I wouldn't know but some of you do.
I don't see how Jack Handle can present a problem with any card that doesn't function exactly like Friendly Fire. If a Hero or Villain card allows a Hero to deal damage to a non-Hero target then Mr. Fixer benefitting from Jack Handle is no more abusive than The Sentinels benefiting from Sentinel Tactics. It's only cards that allow Heroes to damage Heroes for benefit that can possibly cause Jack Handle abuse.
Friendly Fire, on the other hand, lets you make an arbitrary number of attacks on Setback. That's just begging for crazy comboes.
That hypothetical telepathic illusionist just had his whole deck shenaniganned by Fixer.
Although I do have to say you make a good point about FF asking for abuse. You can't just make an arbitrary number of attack on him however, you have to be able to deal damage to a non-hero target to trigger it so you would be limited by the number of times you can hit non-heroes.
Stricktly from theme it does seem to make sense that FF would only be once per turn. When Tempest uses Squall Setback should be in the way once, not once per target hit. I don't like how it restricts characters like KNYFE but I'm ok with this change.
Aww, now you're making me feel bad...
Not that my opinion is valuable at all, I just mean to support those that suggested this as a good fix to the problem of FF.
Also, I disagree with it being once per turn. It's just not good enough to be limited like that. maybe if it were 1 damage for 2 tokens, or 2 damage for 3 tokens, but as a 1-1 trade, I don't feel like it should be nerfed. If it must be changed, make it so Setback is the source of the damage.
Uh, plenty of Villains have been published that have those kind of effects. Plague Rat, Osiris, Miss Information, Evolved Madman Baron Blade, Fright Train, and that's off the top of my head. The fact that Mr. Fixer (and Dr. Medico) can use shenanigans against some of them is no worse than, say, the shenanigans that The Visionary can get up to when rendered unable to deal damage by Ensnaring Brambles, or that Fanatic can get up to against The Matriarch. It's only when you put those effects in a Hero deck that you have to watch out, and even then they may be fine in moderation.
Setback is one of "those" Characters.
He's doing new things, he lets you choose to go against convention and do things you really never would do otherwise.
So yes, he's all about shenanigans.
It is little wonder that he causes mischief with card interactions. That's just how he rolls.
I actually prefer adding the "damage dealt this way cannot trigger Friendly Fire," but that wording is more likely to lead to confusion than having setback deal the damage.
You can still wrong place wrong time the damage, and then use friendly fire on that damage.
If you had a -1 damage taken you could still gain a token.
Hero Lady deals bad guy 2 melee damage, trigger Friendly Fire.
Setback deals setback 2-1 damage, but discards 1 token (Wrong Place Wrong Time) to redirect to Bad Guy, trigger Friendly fire, take 1 add 2 tokens.
Not broken at all, just a neat option.
yeah, and now Wrong Time and Place is only once per turn, so it can't be infinite-comboed.
Instead of changing chard wordings, the ruling can very simply say that 'Also' means that it is part of the same instance of damage.
So Jackhandle would do its damage to all targets, and at the same time hit Setback. Its still one original source of multi targeted damage, and does not trigger anything new.
No need for errata. Just a clarification that also means that its part of the same instance of damage - this instance of damage being a group of little ones, but they are not triggering a loop.
Think of it this way.
the word 'Also' is a tie to the damage. It will metaspace change Jackhandle to read 'Whenever Mr Fixer would deal damage to a target, he deals that much damage to all non-hero targets and may deal Setback 2 damage for each one per the rules on Friendly Fire'
Thats the intent obviously, and how I read it.
Otherwise Jackhandle loops itself if you think about it the other way.
Because it reads 'Whenever Mr Fixer would deal damage' - so he just did damage to 12 minions. Well thats whenever, so he hits them all 12 more times. Oh look thats 12 more instances of 12 more times so .... yeah.
I think that having Setback be the source of the damage has an unwanted effect - it's not a big thing, but Friendly Fire is very interesting when fighting Kismet. On her normal side, a hero who does 4+ damage to another hero destroy a jinx.I would not like to lose this incitation to hit Setback very hard :)
Let's see. FF has a cost : Setback takes damage. The problem is that Jack Handle completely circumvents this cost. I don't think either of this card is wrong - but their interaction is certainly a problem....
Just a suggestion for the sake of discussion :
Whenever a hero target deals a non-hero target damage, that hero may also deal Setback 2 damage of that type.
If he chooses so, but Setback does not take damage this way, destroy this card.
Whenever Setback is dealt damage this way, add 2 tokens to your unlucky pool.
This way, Fixer can use this card to feed Jack Handle - but at the cost of the card and no tokens for Setback. It allows the abuse, but limits it and gives it a cost Setback may not want to pay... And maybe not thematic.
Of course it is probably too complicated, and not really a solution, I propose this for the sake of brainstorming and exploration.
Edit : I like lynkfox idea. "Also" meaning "as part of their attack" with a rule that says that a given "attack" must be fully resolved before being used again ?
On the subject of Fixer's Jack Handle and thematics I have an argument. I don't know if it's terribly well done, and it's a bit of an apologist argument, but I figure it's worth sharing.
What if the Handle is a focus for Fixer? What if it allows him to send his mind to a zen mindscape of sorts that allows him to channel self-destruction into sweeping strikes against the enemy? Poison coursing through his veins? He utilizes the boosted adrenaline to expand his attack patterns and deals with the repurcussions at another time. Mental trauma brought on by innocents suffering? He's too focused to be shaken by villainous deeds and cognitive dissonance. Pontificating villains trying to cause a ringing in his ears? He only hears a firm but comforting breeze and birds chirping while practicing his stances in a serene field. Maybe it was the tool that started his interest in martial arts, auto repair, or both. Perhaps it was a gift from a beloved family member, sensei, or student (maybe even The Operative, herself). It could even be the weapon he is most familiar with due to his blindness (wider range of attack? Testing the field? I'm really grasping here!). But when he shifts to another tool he's back in the battle, the zen mindscape is gone, and he is left to suffer whatever consequences come with it.
Or maybe it's magic. I dunno.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RSf9aEETnvE
Yes clearly, and every time it happens it flys in the face of theme and general mechanics so either just ingnore Jack Handle and design something you know it will shenanigan anyway or design around it. Clearly they went with the first. I think most because its just easier to not worry about it. With Dr. Medico was really surprised because I would have thought the lesson learned. I really think the idea is "Yeah its broken but not enough of a problem to fix."
With Visionary I'm not sure what you mean unless you mean she doesn't take damage from Wrest the Mind or Brain Burn. Great, she avoided one thing of damage IF brambles get her at least she didn't turn it into damage to everything else. Thematically its bad in that Brambles shouln't prevent psychic damage, but I can think of an idea to get around that like since she can't move anyway she isn't thinking about dodging or running and can conentrate on mind control with less strain, whatever. I have more trouble thinking that Fixer is syphoning toxins out of his body and throwing it at bad guys via a metal stick. Also Brain Burn is a one shot where again she would avoid damage.
I don't even know what you mean with Fanatic and Matriarch.
Ok Reckless, I'll buy that. In fact I was thinking if they wanted to be a defensive card why not make an ongoing that says something like "Whenever Fixer would deal himself or another hero damage, negate that damage" and call it purfect body/perfect mind or some thing like that. Maybe that card wasn't good enough on its own.
Really most of my problems with it went out the window when it I found out it was SUPPOSED to be used to negate self damage like that. MIND BLOWN! I went from thinking it was a rules lawyer's dream and a mechanics designer's nightmare to thinking it is just a thematic nightmare which at least doesn't get in the way of future development. I guess I can use your description here to force smash some theme into it.
"Or its magic." Didn't we decide that it was passed down to him from the great Master Jack Handle? Seems like its probably magical.
Man if we ever see a Master Jack Handle promo card, even as a joke, its power needs to invovle doing damage to itself.
Edit:
With my previous assumption that its intent was supposed make his attacks AOE I guess they could have said "Whenever Mr. Fixer uses Strike or Charge…" That would have solved a lot.
As it is with my new understanding of its intent to protect and redirect self damage I now see in my mind a magical artifact passed down from master to pupil for generations. When Fixer picks it up he bangs it on the ground and it begins humming and vibrating like a tuning fork. It becomes almost alive in his hands filling him with with focus and creating harmony within his body and spirit.
I no longer have issues with the card, its mechanics or its theme, I am as Zen as Mr. Fixer holding his magical jack handle.
In the actual game I played, I redirected an entire exploding Explosive Wagon without The Visionary taking the 32 damage doing that would cause her. Oh, and I also kept a pet Living Rockslide around for ages as well.
End of Days comboes with The Matriarch like it comboes with Bee Bot.