Market for Sentinels of the Multiverse

General GTG General Discussion
1

How big do you think the market is for Sentinels of the Multiverse?

Could it become a new classic (like Settlers of Catan)?

Could it have as many players as Magic the Gathering?

Does it tap a market of people who wouldn’t otherwise play tabletop games?

When I first played SotM, I felt like I was experiencing a revolution – both cooperative AND filled with interesting decisions and puzzles, not
to mention incredibly thematic. I was honestly puzzled when others didn’t like it that much. I find myself wondering whether what I like about games is relatively rare, or if it’s just a matter that there are many people who simply haven’t been exposed to Sentinels of the Multiverse.

2

You know obviously we all love SotM, but as far as it having the sort of wide appeal as the games you mentioned, I don’t know.

MtG has years and years of being on the market and that gives it a huge advantage. If you’re a gamer, you pretty much know about MtG, whether you play it or not. They have a horde of professional artists at their disposal to make sure that they get just a ton of cards done quickly and beautifully. SotM has only one artist.

If you ask me, SotM is clearly the superior product. I fell in love with MtG in college and fell out of love with it shortly thereafter. It has some serious issues. People willing to shell out big bucks for rare cards have inherently stronger decks than those who do not. Combos exist that are so rediculously overpowered you can literally win the game before the other player even gets a turn. In college there was a local tournoment featuring the college kids playing MtG. I played in it and was knocked out the first round. That didn’t bug me, I’m not that good, and I knew that going in. What did bug me was that even though the players were in college and thereby had not a lot of money, the winners of the tournoment were still able to construct decks that won the game in 5 turns or less. My point is that a game doesnt have to be a good game, or a balanced game, to be a popular game. And games that are extemely well made aren’t necessarily popular. Ghost Stories is one of my favorite games, it’s excellent on all levels. What’s Ghost Stories, you ask? Exactly.

Comparing SotM to Catan is another matter. I think Catan is a pretty decent game, but it owes its sucess to extremely wide appeal. Its rules are exceedingly simple, yet it has elements of your “gamer” games, like resource management, building, and trading. Even competition, area control, and screwing your opponents. Catan is wildly popular because gamers enjoy it, gamers buy it, but not only gamers play it. It’s a game you can introduce your non-gamer friends to. It’s a game you can get your roommate to play when you need another player. It’s a game you can play with your parents, and they might have a chance of understanding it. , and even liking it. SotM is not this kind of game. Its rules are not that complex, but still too involved to get a lot of nongamers interested. The superhero genre also tends to appeal to people who are gamers, and less to those who are not.

So, to answer your questions, I feel, no, no, and no. SotM is a game for gamers. People who like to play games and like the superhero genre are going to love it, but its not going to coax anyone new to the gaming table, nor does it have the sheer force of brand recognition like MtG to get otherwise wary players into it.

3

I’m with awp I want the answers to all of these questions to be “yes”, but I don’t think I can say it.

As much as I really enjoy the game, I’m not sure I think SotM has M:tG-level mojo. M:tG is polished in a way SotM isn’t, which is one of SotM’s charms I think, but which I think could keep it from becoming Big Time. At the very least, a mass consumer market is going to expect super flashy Jim Lee-style art, and they’re going to wonder why Batman and Sperman aren’t on the box. Sad, but true I think.

Could it become a classic like Catan? I think this is more likely, since the charms of the game seem to me the kind of thing that makes a classic a classic. Only time can tell.

Does it tap a market of people who wouldn’t otherwise play tabletop games? I don’t think it does, not without some other hook (like Superman on the box, as previously mentioned). There would need to be something about the game which made someone who would normally spend their evenings alone or watching TV or going out with friends or doing anything else, want to play SotM instead. That’s a pretty tall order.

4

Well that may be somewhat true, but it isn’t for me! I am not a gamer AT ALL. Sentinels is the only game that I play that is at all technical. I won’t even play Settlers of Catan! I had a friend literally drag me to gaming club, and I picked up Sentinels right away.

Am I an anomaly in being a non-gamer who loves Sentinels?

5

A few thoughts on Sentinels vs MtG (I know this isn’t strictly the question, but it’s a good example):
I think, thematically, MtG is likely to appeal to a broader audience from the outset because it’s based around a fantasy universe. Although there’s naturally some crossover, I’m pretty sure more people read fantasy than read comic books. I remember a statistic that roughly 1/10 books sold in the UK is a fantasy book - I don’t think comics and graphic novels have those kind of sales figures, even with the recent successes of superhero movies.

I’m also not sure if cooperative games are likely to be as widely popular as competitive games. A couple of possible reasons for that:

  • People get a kick out of out-thinking, out-playing or whatever they have to do to just beat the other player.
  • Tournaments. There’s no real way to have a tournament in co-operative gaming, because you either win, or you lose. You can just about measure how much you win by, but that’s still not the basis for a proper tournament. As such, no possibility of winning cash prizes, no ‘legendary status’ as a player. You can’t really ‘go pro’ at Sentinels (unless you end up working for >G, but that’s not quite the same thing!).

For the record, though, I much prefer Sentinels to what I’ve played of MtG. Like awp said, I prefer not to play against someone who can essentially buy victory.

Those thoughts aside, I do think it has the potential to bring non-gamers into gaming; I’ve also seen casual tabletop gamers light up when they start playing Sentinels. I definitely look forward to seeing how it grows and develops in future.

6
  1. Pretty good.
  2. No
  3. No
  4. Yes

I have people in my gaming group who absolutely detest the SotM. They want to be the bad guy, or want to “beat” the other players. Sitting around and working together don’t sit well with them. (No wonder then, that they absolutely love The Resistance, a game I absolutely refuse to play). On the bright side, a bunch of people like this game.

Settlers is easy for newbies to pick up on and do stuff. SotM starts out simple, but for the first time player, a lot of complexity quickly gets piled on as more cards come into play. Base Settlers doesn’t really have new concepts being thrown at a player continuously.

Magic is entrenched and mainstream. Competitive. A lot of people love that. The 20sided store in Brooklyn has MtG 5 days out of 6 in a week. Me? I think it’s a losers game (for people who love to lose money :stuck_out_tongue: )

Sentinels is easy to sell to non-gamers. It is easy to draw anyone who has read a comic book or seen a comic book movie into the game. Of course, I add flavour to the game by providing backstories and special effects to the villains, so it’s pretty fun for me :slight_smile:

7

There are a lot of people who detest cooperative games. My soon-to-be mother-in-law is one. She doesn’t get the point, and is bored by them. If you look at some of the conversations about cooperative games on Board Game Geek, you’ll find there’s a bunch of people who just don’t like the idea at all. I think these are the people who crave the competitive aspect. They also talk a lot about “Alpha Player Syndrome”, where one person can call all the shots, and the other players didn’t even need to show up. (Which is certainly possible in Sentinels, but the game design does a good job of giving you your own decisions to make.)

I don’t think Sentinels could ever garner the audience of Pandemic. Pandemic is probably the co-op that reaches the widest audience. What I want to see for Sentinels is for it to reach new heights of prominence in the gaming world. Many publications have named it Best New Game of such and such, and I just want to see those accolades continue. If it were to hit the top 100 on BGG, I would be very impressed.

8

I think at this point we just need to try to expand the market in our own local areas. I’ve got a lot of friends who love this game because I got it for Christmas as a last minute add to my wish list. From me getting the core set, four other people bought the core around town, one bought Rook City, and myself and two others pumped mad money into the Infernal Relics Kickstarter (which will add three Expanded Editions, two Rook Cities, three Infernal Relics, and three copies of all of the promo cards and decks to our collective collection). I dunno if it’s just Kansas, but people love this game. Very few didn’t want to play it again and again, and even less outright disliked it. A friend of mine is already cataloging the cards and designing some decks. We’re even talking about writing and recording some radio plays (if we ever get motivated or organized enough to actually pull it off)!

When I get my copy of the Enhanced Edition, I plan to work out a demo for my local gaming store. I’ve already talked about it with the store, so I just need to come up with a demo plan with the owners (and any advice from Adam, Chris, Paul, and all the fine members of the SotM forum!). Has anyone else done this at their local game stores? I don’t know if it has the potential to be as popular as Settlers or M:tG, but spreading the word and showing off how great it is can’t hurt!

9

yes, there are those that dislike coop games, but there are also those that prefer them.

Co-op games become not fun during Alpha-player syndrome, its true. This is because co-op games are very tricky to teach. As a teacher, it is easy to fall into the trap of thinking “since we’re all in this together, I should use my knowledge of the game to point out what the best play is. They certainly won’t mind, because they want to win as much as I do.” Really people need to make their own mistakes. But this can be made even more difficult if you have a passive or unconfident player. Someone who straight up asks what they should do. It’s motivated from a good place, they want to do what is best for the team, and that’s a good thing. But if they don’t understand why then they’ll repeat their mistakes.

For that reason, Co-op games are really at thier best when either; 1. You’re learning them together. or 2. Everyone already knows how to play, and is at least compotent in terms of strategy. 2. is where co-op really shines for me. No alpha-players, just everyone doing their own thing and trying to synergize.

10

I’ve organized game days at a bunch of stores. I had the advantage that Christopher was attending.

Even so, some tips:

A) Don’t call it demos. People want to play, not demo the game. If 100 people show up, sure do short demos.

B) Talk to people working at the store. If they’re interested, they’ll tell their friends and customers.

C) If there are locals who are already doing tabletop game days, talk to them. If nothing else, they’re people who might want to attend and they might have suggestions on when to do it and/or offer to have your game day be part of their regular rotation.

D) Take the advice of the store as to when the people who are likely to like the game will be there. MtG players are a mixed blessing. Similar mechanics, but completely non-cooperative. Hero clicks would seem like a natural fit – people who like superhero games – but again they may not be in to cooperative play. Your best bet are board gamers.

E) Spread the word as best you can. Tell your friends. Post to local forums. See if the store will let you post to their Facebook page. Make a digital flyer that the store can print out and post.

11

Thanks for the tips! The employees have a pretty good idea of what to do with stuff like this, but I’ll definitely bring these bullet points up so I seem like I know what I’m doing!

12

When you first asked these questions, I felt I had some easy answers, but the more I thought about it, the more it made me seriously evaluate Sentinels of the Multiverse. There are some things that I think are good and some that are barriers to more mainstream acceptance. This is just feedback and please try not to take some of the things I say as slamming the game. I like this game a lot. Clearly, enough to be an active member of its message boards and to sign up for playtesting. So here goes.

How big is the market?
Currently I think Sentinels has a pretty niche market. I do think it has plenty of room to expand in its market, and right now it is building up steam. It is a cooperative super hero card game that should appeal to players of CCGs, cooperative games, and with some over lap to those who play board games. The audience is primarily male and the artwork appears designed to capture the attention of males over females. As has been noted elsewhere, there are many strong female roles in this game, but thinking about who is going to be attracted to this at a glance, it’s gonna be guys. This does not mean women will not enjoy the game and I think we have plenty of evidence they do.
Comics are a growing market and Sentinels could get huge. The question that >G needs to decide is what they are willing to sacrifice to get there. More on that later.

Could it become a new classic?
Most definitely. It is currently a unique game. It’s also a new game and needs some polish from successive iterations being released. >G has already tweaked some of the powers of existing characters in the enhanced edition to balance better and changed text to be more consistent. If you want a classic game, it needs to flow smoothly, be accessible to the majority of people, and be fun from the first play through the thousandth. Will it be Catan, not likely, unless comics become the dominant form of literature in the US. ïÂ

13

Nobody likes the mana system in MTG. Even Richard Garfield is on record as saying (something to the effect of) that if he were to design MTG today, lands wouldn’t be a part of it. No other CCG – published by WotC or anyone else since then – has dedicated resource-generating cards that are otherwise useless; it’s all one aspect of cards that do other things or an alternate way to use cards that are already in the deck. It is unquestionably the game’s biggest flaw, and yet without it we’d be playing a completely different game at this point.

14

Nobody likes the mana system in MTG. Even Richard Garfield is on record as saying (something to the effect of) that if he were to design MTG today, lands wouldn’t be a part of it. No other CCG – published by WotC or anyone else since then – has dedicated resource-generating cards that are otherwise useless; it’s all one aspect of cards that do other things or an alternate way to use cards that are already in the deck. It is unquestionably the game’s biggest flaw, and yet without it we’d be playing a completely different game at this point.
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I have a secret theory that part of Magic’s longevity may have something to do with the land thing. The fact that it increases the variability of reinforcement makes it closer to gambling.

15

I am not sure. The art style is Silver Age-y and fits the genre quite well. The only way you could change it further is to make it like … uhh… Archie comics style? Otherwise it really wouldn’t be comic book. (And the game doesn’t vibe with the modern gritty “graphic novel” style)

No, not Magic players. Magic. “Oh hey, these cards are not legal any more because we fucked up bigtime. BUY BUY BUY our new cards if you want to continue playing.” Really. -_-. (Also refer: power creep) I’m just jaded with MtG. It’s not a balanced thing :stuck_out_tongue:

On the flip side, said Batman fanboi wouldn’t want Batman to lose (because he’s the motherfucking batman) and would throw a hissy fit when Spite (Or is it Bane?) hands him his ass.

Heh, I noticed that as well; (WHY AM I ONLY DRAWING MORE STANCES? WHERE ARE THE WEAPONS? ARRRRGH) so I went ahead and created my own martial arts themed hero that retains the stance mechanic (and a couple more gimmicks). Not being an artist, the cards are kinda blank; but they flow quite well.

16

No, Magic is not a balanced thing and could never be with the number of cards. They do an excellent job of balancing blocks however. Of course that leads to you frustration with card retirement.

But then Sentinels is not balanced either. Some villains are tougher than others. Some heroes are better than others. The same goes for environments. I think >G is taking a good step forward by categorizing difficulty of the villains and would like them to do so for heroes and environments as well. Thus, players can select the level of imbalance they want in the game.

I don’t see the issue with Batman “fanboys.” They are as aware as anyone else that batman loses at times but always comes back in the end. The same is true of Sentinels. And, in my secret heart of hearts, I would like to play a DC or Marvel Sentinels game (hmmmm…Galactus). However, I also realize going down that path would water down or otherwise take away from the unique heroes of the game. So it’s one of those “be careful what you wish for,” things.