Ye olde fireside chat thread has been updated with more rulings & clarifications from our discussions with Christopher. Any questions or concerns, feel free to discuss here!
A few things have already come up in other discussions (e.g. some Unforgiving Wasteland interactions) that we are still working out with Christopher, and those will be resolved for the Shattered Timelines update.
I'm confused by the ammo ruling. Why does the equipment card act different than an Ongoing which wouldn't have a valid target? For example, I play Wrest the Mind but there are no valid so it is considered to be destroyed.
No, it is not considered to be destroyed. That was already in the rulings, and the ammo ruling was changed to match.
I have a question too!
Grease Gun can stop all damage dealt by non-hero targets to hero targets even if Mister Fixer is an Isolated Hero, due to it messing with the villain. Gi Bunker's Panzer Buster does not stopp hero damage from being Irreducible on the chosen target if Bunker is Isolated Hero, even though Panzer-Buster is also altering the villain. Is there a difference between the two cards that I am missing?
Edit: And another!
Embolden still counts the target it was next to whos turn it is for purposes of determining the End of Turn it will trigger on, implying that it's still next to a target. Wrest the Mind and Twist the Ether are destroyed when the target they are next to leaves play. Why does Wrest the Mind and Twist the Ether count the target they are next to as leaving play but Embolden acknowledges the target it was placed next to?
It's about damn time. It's only been 2 years since this heavily debated thread was created looking for answers to Isolated Hero.
Edit: Skippy, it looks like we got it pretty close at the end yeah?
It is still a ruling that seems odd. Edit: I thought this was being brought up to Christopher again about why it seems inconsistent with How Ongoings with no valid target work. Does this mean with Fixed Point out if an Ammo card is played with no guns out that the Ammo still goes to the trash?
Doesn't seem odd to me. No valid targets were in play for the ammo, so the card never actually enters play. Likewise with Ongoings, no valid target, so they never really enter play. Seems consistent, not inconsistent.
By my accounting, Fixed Point would only affect cards that enter play. Without a valid target, the ammo never really enters play, so Fixed Point doesn't prevent its destruction.
If you play Wrest the Mind with no valid targets in play that Ongoing is considered to be destroyed before hitting the trash. That's what happens in the video game and Mega Computer. If they are both supposed to just hit the trash (Ongoing and Equipment) without being destroyed then I'm ok with it.
Edit: Nevermind on this. Wrest the Mind did go straight to the trash and I do see an example for Wrest the Mind listed. It does bring up an issue I found in Mega Computer with Fixed Point out in regards to this though.
Hair-trigger Reflexes:
This doesn't stop the card play, correct? Since the response to the card entering play will still trigger even though the card was destroyed.
Yes we did. Fortunately I've also learned the difference between effect and affect since then. That was painful to read.
Heh. Unforgiving Wasteland eating the Ennead. Or the Operative.
Question:
However, Wrest the Mind and Twist the Ether work differently due to their text. Once either hero become isolated, these cards no longer have a valid target next to them and so are destroyed.
So playing Isolated hero on a hero causes all other heroes and their cards to treat the newly isolated hero and all of their cards as if they just left play?
Because the target next to the card didn't leave play, and the destruction clause is only if the target leaves play.
Does this mean they will treat an Isolated hero and their cards as having just entered play when Isolated hero is destroyed?
Discarding and Scholar's new power:
1. Is the wording "Player discard" the key, for example Consider the Price of Victory tells players to discard a card, would that be the Scholar discarding and therefore count for Channel? This seems to be the idea.
2. Would river of lava count for Channel even though it discards from your deck? I assume yes here as well.
3. Does this ruling affect how Police backup is destroyed? For example if missing resources only discarded the revealed card, would police backup remain in play, since the villain did not make a player discard, but discarded the revealed card herself? I assume it would count the same cards that Channel would.
Assuming I am right in how this works, here are the non-hero cards currently out for SotM whose discard will not count towards Channel. *=by villain, so relevant to Police Backup.
Already in video game
Realm of Discord: Ghostly Images
Ruins of Atlantis: Atlantean Font of Power (I would assume anytime a duplicate limited card would be put into play, the discard by rule would not count toward channel)
*The Ennead: Isis, Incap
*Miss Information: Missing Resources
Not in the video game yet
*Ermine: Incap effect
*Ermine: Constant Prattle
*Deadline: Magnetic Pole Shift
Dok'Thorath Capital: Defiant Looters
Enclave of the Endlings: Slamara (same as Font of Power)
Freedom Tower: Mission Control
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Freedom Tower: Dr. Stinson's lab: It does not say player discards, but it is optional, and obviously the player is choosing. The understood "you" should be enough for it to count for Channel.
Hero cards whose discards won't count toward Channel:
Character cards already in video game
America's Greatest Legacy: Incap #3
Super Scientific Tachyon: Experiment Power.
Character Cards not in video game yet
Prime Warden Fanatic: Incap #3
Rogue Agent KNYFE: Infiltration Power and Incap #3
Omnitron-X: Timeshift power (Included even though it doesn't discard at all)
F6 promo Tempest: Incap #3
Writhe: Extract Power
Setback: Incap #3
DW Setback: Incap #3
Hero Cards not in video game yet
Guise: Gimmicky Character
The Naturalist: Hyperactive Senses
Setback: Fumbling Fool
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Argent Adept: Inventive Preparation: This one works similarly to Stinson's lab, the player looks at the top card, but the rest of the command says to replace or discard, I assume it is still the player, so it would count.
Most of it boils down to whether it says the player discards the card or not. Missing Resources has you revealing a card and then each player discarding based on the revealed keywords. The revealed card does not count as it doesn't list that the player is discarding it but any cards discarded by the player due to that revealed card does.
It says in the clarifications: " If GI Bunker uses his innate power on a target, and an Isolated Hero deals damage to that target, the damage is not made irreducible."
If you are seeing otherwise in the video game, please report a bug.
Whatever the wording is, you have to simply determine agency. If the agent discarding the card is The Scholar's player, then it counts.
Yes, discards from deck count, if it's The Scholar doing it.
- Does this ruling affect how Police backup is destroyed? For example if missing resources only discarded the revealed card, would police backup remain in play, since the villain did not make a player discard, but discarded the revealed card herself? I assume it would count the same cards that Channel would.
I don't know, but I'll ask Christopher for next time.
"Ancient Library: if some situation causes the hero to only draw 1 card, the environment still plays a card."
If a player can't draw *any* cards (say, due to having a 40-card hand), can they still opt to "draw 2 cards" and trigger the Ancient Library?
"The wording on Infection is changed to read: “Play the top card of the villain deck. Then, discard this card.”"
You just mean to replace the "if all Active heroes are Infected" part, right? This still does its normal Infection?
"An Isolated Hero cannot deal damage or be dealt damage by any other hero."
Do you mean that the IH can't deal damage *to any other hero*, or *at all*? More generally, is the Hero Isolated from the Villain and Environment, or just the other Heroes?
"Cards that say “whenever a card is played” or “whenever a card enters play” do not react to Ambuscade's trap cards being flipped up and shuffled into the deck."
Do they trigger when an Ambuscade trap becomes face up on top of the deck?
"Suppose Explosive Bubbles is at full HP and we have selected the 5 targets with the highest HP. If Explosive Bubbles hits Ra first, and he has Flame Barrier, Ra hits the bubbles back for 2 HP. At this point, Explosive Bubbles will hit 2 more targets. You need to re-evaluate the 2 highest HP targets from the subset of originally chosen highest HP targets."
In this example, Ra would no longer be a viable target for the subsequent EB damage, would he?
"Fanatic must choose a positive integer for Sacrosanct Martyr."
So, not zero?
More generally, is fractional damage ever legal?
You do have to actually draw at least one card. If Bunker has Turret mode out and tried to draw it wouldn't trigger as Bunker can't draw cards.
Just from other heroes. The villain and environment still have their normal impact.
No as he was already dealt damage by Explosive Bubbles
zero isn't an option nor is a fractional number.
No. It says "If they do" and they didn't draw any cards.
The wording on Infection is changed to read: “Play the top card of the villain deck. Then, discard this card.”"You just mean to replace the "if all Active heroes are Infected" part, right? This still does its normal Infection?
The order of those actions written on the original card are simply swapped. This prevents an infinite loop situation. It has no practical difference in 99.99% of situations. You can look at the card in the video game to see the full wording if you like.
"An Isolated Hero cannot deal damage or be dealt damage by any other hero."Do you mean that the IH can't deal damage to any other hero, or at all? More generally, is the Hero Isolated from the Villain and Environment, or just the other Heroes?
There's a missing "to" in there, I'll fix it. It's the former.
"Cards that say “whenever a card is played” or “whenever a card enters play” do not react to Ambuscade's trap cards being flipped up and shuffled into the deck."Do they trigger when an Ambuscade trap becomes face up on top of the deck?
Ambuscade’s trap cards can never enter play. So, no.
"Suppose Explosive Bubbles is at full HP and we have selected the 5 targets with the highest HP. If Explosive Bubbles hits Ra first, and he has Flame Barrier, Ra hits the bubbles back for 2 HP. At this point, Explosive Bubbles will hit 2 more targets. You need to re-evaluate the 2 highest HP targets from the subset of originally chosen highest HP targets."In this example, Ra would no longer be a viable target for the subsequent EB damage, would he?
No, he's already been hit.
"Fanatic must choose a positive integer for Sacrosanct Martyr."So, not zero?More generally, is fractional damage ever legal?
Zero is not a positive integer. Fractional damage is never intended to happen.
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Sorry, I worded it funny. Why isn't it irreducible? The villain is the one being affected by the Panzer-Buster. I'm failing to see why Panzer Buster and Grease Gun appear to be working differently.
If "Up to 5" for Sacrosynct Matyr must be a positive integer, should cards that say "select up to x targets" also have a minumum of 1 target?
It affects the damage dealt to that villain, not the villain itself. That is what I'm guessing the difference is, because Grease Gun causes non-hero targets to be unable to deal damage, so it directly affects those targets. Damage dealt by a hero is an effect of a hero card, therefore that damage is not a valid target through Isolated Hero.
That has implication that Chrono-Ranger's "By Any Means" will not increase hero damage through isolation, because while you pick a Villain, it boosts the damage, so the target of its effect would be the damage, not the villain.