So I’m watching a live play last night and one of the PCs goes Out partway through a scene (as happens). And then the GM continues to apply penalties from various sources to the character just as though they were still active, making their vestige of a turn into an exercise in shedding penalties and hoping to generate a +1 bonus. This went on for multiple rounds, they weren’t even in Red when he dropped - and the scene as a whole was continually pumping out hero penalties so they hardly ever got a clean turn before then. Wasn’t like the player even had a powerful Out - he’d only assigned a d8 to it despite having a d10 option, and we all know how much of a difference that makes when Boosting.
Now, Hindering an Out character is technically legal as far as I can see, but I’ve never seen a GM do that, nor considered doing so myself. Heck, a good chunk of the time an Out character isn’t even present (or alive) any more and their “turn” is the effects of the memory of the PC working on their allies, not something they’re doing that could be interfered with. Piling more grief on them is just uncalled for, at least IMO.
I asked the groups I used to run FTF games for and they were unanimous that they’d have walked away from the table en masse if I’d pulled that stunt, and I’m pretty sure I’d do the same as a player.
Looking for other opinions, and some insight as to why you’d do this if you disagree.
no, don’t do that, wtf? It’s bad enough the player has to “skip” doing anything meaningful for the rest of the scene, but then to actively punish them further? Yikes.
there are live plays of the game out there? My search terms need some fine tuning I guess.
I’ve seen Out PCs actually win the scene for their still-standing teammate(s) so occasionally meaningful, but they sure don’t get many choices to make. Surprising how impactful well-timed d10 or d12 boosts or hinders can be, and just defending can leave a villain wondering where all their damage output went. But still, penalties? Bad form, man.
They’re few and far between, and most are years old now when it still had a lot of buzz. Search youtube for “Sentinel Comics RPG” and you’ll turn up a few among the reviews, not all of them from GTG. The only currently active one I know of is from Third Floor Wars.
Yeah, most of the time I wouldn’t apply penalties to an Out character, unless they were fairly specific penalties and the player wasn’t narrating around them.
The whole point of the Boost/Hinder system is that it has to be narratively appropriate, and usually when you’re Out you’re describing how your character continues to influence the scene despite not being active - a memory, something they did in the past, all sorts of options. It would be rare to stick a penalty on that.
Yeah, I’ll join the chorus of saying that this just seems like adding insult to injury, salting the wound, kicking them when they’re already down, or whatever other applicable saying you want to use.
Sure, it seems legal from a rules perspective, but what’s the use? A baddie making a Hinder action on a limited number of characters should just never do this, though I suppose I could see the logic in thinking that if one uses a “Hinder any number of targets ability,” there’d be no reason to exclude an Out hero. But still. Just no.
To be fair, I think most or all of the post-Out Hinders were effects from the environment or challenges introduced by twists, so not deliberately targeted. But still, you don’t have to hit everyone you can, especially as the GM.
As much as it would make sense for a blanket hinder from the environment to hit an Out character, I also agree that is Less Fun and thus should not be enforced. :B
Well, yes/no depending on what Out means in a given circumstance, and what the Out ability involved is doing narratively. In the live-play’s case, the Out character was on the ground talking to his teammate, and the penalties were IIRC coming from being pestered by escaped lab animals and a collapsing ceiling. So I guess reasonable enough there.
But that’s a really tame Out. I’ve played with folks whose default Out states included:
Dissolve into quantum particles that manipulated probability as their action, reforming when the scene ended - sometimes imprisoned by a villain if the team lost the scene.
Turn into mist and return to the cosmic coffin that appears when they’re defeated, while the swarm of space bats they left behind keeps pestering the baddies.
Weave a mostly-invincible regenerative cocoon while the spirit moth that usually empowers them defends allies.
Abandon the now-shattered icon they were occupying to a the nearest hunk of stone/concrete/earth/metal while allies get a Boost from the certainty that they’ll be back - eventually.
The shrinking guy who implodes into a micro-singularity as they lose the ability to remain in the macro-universe, which then zips around Defending with the gravity distortions it creates.
De-animates into an orichalcum statue while foes are Hindered by hexes laid on those who dare oppose them.
They didn’t always do that if it didn’t make narrative sense, but it was more common that just getting knocked silly or taking a Time Out.
There’s also situational Outs defined by the GM’s scene. A few I recall:
Any PC or NPC ally who went Out was trapped in a time-suspension bubble along with the other folks they were here to rescue, all of which would burst and release them after the scene ended favorably - otherwise it was “wake up in the villain’s lab” time. Out actions were handwaved as either inspiration and extra determination or temporal ripples from the villain mucking about with time so much.
In a vehicle pursuit scene, going Out meant you’d either been left hopelessly behind, crashed, run out of fuel, etc. Out actions were all handwaved to be lucky breaks, help through a comms connection, or (for one televised event) the crowd voting to help the underdog team.
Mindscape/dream dimension scenes where Out just chucked you back to your normal reality is a dazed and weakened state, but you could still force fragments of your will back into the scene to manipulate events in limited ways.
Think FrivYeti’s got the heart of it - if the narrative doesn’t support the mechanics, narrative is the trump - but you can usually find away to make things fit the story with some creativity.
But in general, Less Fun is the wrong choice overall, and being Out in the first place isn’t much fun unless you were letting it happen as part of some risky heroic move or because it fit the circumstances.
Man, that just sounds rough. If someone is already Out, stacking even more penalties on them feels kinda cruel like, let them catch a break! I get sticking to rules, but if it is killing the fun for the player, it is probably not worth it. Personally, I would be frustrated too if I had to sit there watching my character keep getting hit while already down.
I confess, it seemed so counter to the game’s usual “do what’s most fun” philosophy I went back through and made sure there wasn’t some special exception for Out abilities, but no, there’s nothing there. You stop taking damage so multi-target Attacks are meaningless (unless you just want to die dramatically), but mods still apply RAW. Has some implications for the value of P+E bonuses and penalties when you’re in danger of dropping, too.
I think I’m going to house rule Out characters so they lose all existing mods (persistent or not) when they go down, and can’t gain new ones during the scene. You could still target them with Overcomes to narratively take them prisoner or evacuate them from the scene or something, but even that won’t prevent them from using that Out ability if they can justify it.
Surprised I’ve never seen anyone go Out with a persistent mod on them, but most of my players were savage about scrubbing P+E mods off ASAP and the villains tended to behave the same.
Welcome aboard the forums, FWIW. Feels like we’re getting more new blood after GTG got shuttered than for a year or two before…
If someone is already Out, stacking even more penalties on them feels kinda cruel like, let them catch a break! I get sticking to rules, but if it is killing the fun for the player, it is probably not worth it. Personally, I would be frustrated too if I had to sit there watching my character keep getting hit while already down.