Order in which damage effects are applied

Other Games SotM Game Engine
1

There's a lot of old discussion about damage effects and the order in which they are applied, but I still find the situation murky.  In particular, I'm not sure which of the old discussions have been overruled by later rulings.  (I always get suspicious when a thread starts talking about Imbued Fire/Flesh of the Sun God, which has since been ruled not to work.)

So here are some questions.

(1) Do damage-type-changing effects take place in the order in which cards are played?  For instance, if Ra's "Imbued Fire" is played before Visionary's "Twist the Ether", I would think the damage gets converted to fire, then to whatever Visionary chooses, while if "Twist the Ether" was played first, I would think the damage is always fire.  Is this correct?  I did find some people confused in other threads.

(2) When do damage bonuses get applied?  For instance, suppose Absolute Zero (AZ) and Ra are out. AZ has played Focused Apertures before Ra played Imbued Fire, and then AZ deals some cold damage.  Perhaps the cold damage gets the +1 from focused apertures, then is converted to fire by Imbued fire, then gets the +1 from Imbued Fire; or perhaps the damage type is computed first (and is fire), then there's only the one +1 from Imbued Fire.

(3) When AZ would deal cold damage to himself that is converted into healing by Null-Point Calibration Unit, does this count as cold damage dealt by AZ for the purposes of (eg) Thermal Shockwave?

(4) Can damage reduction get applied multiple times?  Eg, say Haka has Ta Moko out, and Legacy has Lead from the Front and Fortitude out.  Then a villain deals damage to Haka.  Can this get reduced by 1 by Ta Moko, switched to Legacy by Lead from the Front, then reduced by 1 by Fortitude?  Does it depend on the order the cards were played in?

(5) For effects like Fanatic's Undaunted, when do I check the damage amount?

(Text: "Whenever exactly 1 damage would be dealt to Fanatic, prevent that damage. Whenever Fanatic would be dealt 5 or more damage from a single source, reduce that damage by 2.")

(6) In general, I'd like to see an accounting of the precise steps involved in computing damage.  I suspect the answers to (2) and (4) are both "no, that combo doesn't work", but why not?  One algorithm I would know how to apply would be to have virtual damage floating around, modified by all cards played in the order they were played (damage increased/decreased, targets switched, type changed, converted to healing, etc.)  But I gather this is not the algorithm?

2

I should say that I've checked Spiff's very useful compilation of rule clarifications, and didn't find these issues clarified there.

3

1. Not sure if it has ever been confirmed, but that is exactly as I have been playing it. So I tend to save Twist the Ether on a hero for after Imbued Fire is played, or use Mental Divergence to take 3 rounds to get it back into play.

2. As Focused Appertures specifies cold damage is increased, he would no longer get the +1 for cold since it is now fire.

3. No, as he was not dealt the cold damage. Being dealt damage is always a result of HP loss.

4. Damage can be reduced multiple times, however not by cards that specift a hero. As Haka would reduce damage dealt to himself by 1, once it goes to another target it is no longer reduced as Haka is no longer going to be hit. However with Smoke Bomb from the Wraith, if the lowest would be hit, the damage would be redirected to the highest, say Haka with Ta Moko. That would result in a -2 to damage.

5. Right before you take her HP away.

6. I think someone posted something like this at one point, i'll see if I can find it.

4

(1) It happens in the order of cards played, as you rightly surmised.

(2) Add damage bonus based on type at the very end of the 'chain', after the type has been determined. In your example it would be +1fire damage from Ra's imbued Fire.

(3) Whoops! Ronway is right, I am wrong.

(4) When damage is redirected you recalaculate the damage done. If Haka was the original target of an attack by Ambuscade and Legacy redirects it to himself, then the nemesis bonus would not apply, nor would any reduction specific to Haka. Damage reduction from global sources (e.g. shielding winds) and damage reduction on the final target (e.g. Fortitude) would apply. In your example Legacy's reduction would apply, Haka's would not, netting a -1 in total.

(5) I don't understand this question, you seem to know when to check for Ta Moko, this is no different.

(6) No, there's no algorithm. Well there probably is, in our heads, but it's too much hassle for me to put it into a way someone else would understand!

 

And let me say, welcome to the forums!

5

Regarding Twist the Ether, doesn't Visionary get to choose what the damage type is whenever that target attempts to deal damage? With Imbued Fire, you basically read all damage types as "fire", so for example if a card says "deal one target 2 melée damage", if Imbued Fire is out you basically pretend that card reads "deal one target 2 fire damage". But if Twist has been played on that person, I don't see it'd make a difference whether it or Imbued Fire came out first. Because instead of Visionary looking at the target and going "It's trying to deal melée damage? Okay, I convert it to cold", she's looking at it and going "It's trying to deal fire damage? Okay, I convert it to cold".

6

I agree with Ameena on this point. Card play order is really only important when multiple effects happen simultaniously (example, multiple start/end of turn effects). I understand thats not exactly how the rulebook explains it, but that is the reality of how the game has evolved. Things like global damage type changes and damage increases are understood to be "static" and always constantly on.

For me at least, Twist the Ether is altering a global effect with a trigger condition of when someone tries to deal damage. We all know that triggered effects get resolved in order from newest to oldest (unlike resolving multiple simultanious effects, which happen in order from oldest card to newest). So in that sense, Twist the Ether is the newest trigger where as Imbued is oldest (because it is global and always on). 

7

I'm with Ameena on TtE.  Also environment cards that change things universally, I believe that TtE's effect is activated after the universal, non-optional effects, because it is optional, it would be wierd if you would have to decide what damage and whether to increase it before checking all the other steps.

Its taken me a while to get used to the flow of calculations because I'm used to CCGs and the method of applying effects they have.

This game has its own, and it is quite different, but also quite intuitive once you get the hang of it, or at least most of the time.

Damage reduction is personal, damage increases like focused Aperature and imbued fire only apply to their element.

So if Imbued fire and focused aperature are out and AZ has Twist the Ether on himself and he tries to cold himself the cold damage would be increased by aperature, except that it isn't cold damage, Imbued fire has made it fire, and raised it by it's own effect.  So AZ's ability to deal himelf fire or cold has become fire or fire.  Then I believe Visionary can change that through TtE, since it's effect is activated after imbued fire has done it's thing.  IF Vis changes that damage to Cold, it loses the +1 from imbued fire and regains the +1 from aperature, as well as Vis's effect of raising or lowering it.  If she changes it to Radiant, Melee or Fluffy Bunny damage, the other bonuses don't apply and only her own effect can raise or lower it.  (Fluffy Bunny damage is unstable and I wouldn't suggest using it)

For damage done, the target has to actually take damage, which I believe means that if a target has two health and you hit them for 4 health you only get credit for two.  The exception to this is if they are indestructible, under those circumstances it is official that targets can enter negative HP, which means you can deal damage past 0hp.

The steps would seem to be:

1.  the starting step that leads to damage being dealt.

2.  Check for any modifiers to damage from that target.  If damage changes type re-check.

3.  Check for redirection.

4.  Check for modifiers to damage dealt to target.

5.  Calculate final damage, check for immunity, negation or change to healing.

6.  Check for redirection, if redirected return to step 4.

7.  Apply damage.

8.  Check for destruction and effects

9.  Check for retaliation effects.

I don't think I missed anything.  Feel free to add points if I did.

Interesting note, AZ's cold to healing is not changing the damage type, you don't lose the modifiers to cold damage dealt or taken, you just heal for the amount you would be damaged, I honestly don't know if you would gain universal increases to recovery or not, we do in my group, but I don't know officially.

8

I'm pretty sure that you always get credit for the full damage dealt, even if it knocks them into negative HP.  Alot of cards mention targets being at zero or less HP, so I don't think it is some special rule for indestructible targets.  (The only thing special about indestructible targets is that they actually remain in play since they can't be destroyed).

9

We just had this TtE and Imbued Fire combo in our last game.  Imbued Fire is a constant effect so I believe the order is something like:

1) Player does X melee damage.

2) Melee is converted to fire and increased to X+1 as a result of Imbued Fire.

3) TtE is used to convert the damage to say energy and increased by one.  Damage is now energy and no longer gets the IF bonus, so it's energy X+1.

4) IF is a constant effect.  The damage is immediately converted back to fire, and the IF fire increase now applies again.  The damage is now X+2 fire.

X + 1 from TtE + 1 from IF.

I don't think you can use the text on TtE more than once for a single damage source.  This would mean that whatever type you change to is overridden by any constant effects.  If TtE didn't operate that way then you could change the damage type and amount every time the type was changed by a constant effect causing an infinite loop of damage increases.  I think, I don't have the card in front of me.

The real sticky situation is Imbued Fire coupled with an environment card that converts all damage.  I assume in that situation it's down to card play order. 

10

I do not believe that is correct. If you decide to activate Twist the Ether, you are overriding Imbued Fire with the new effect. Twist the Ether does not stop its effect right after you use it, so Imbued Fire would not come back to override it. Even if it did, your interpretation assumes Twist the Ether is no longer in effect, meaning you wouldn't get +2 in either case.

Combine your step 1+2. This happens at the same time. The player would not even attempt to deal melee. It is fire+1 from the start.

11

My interpretation assumes that the damage type from TtE is overridden.  The increase in damage (or decrease if chosen) is a seperate component.

12

Imbued Fire does not have a trigger condition to override TtE after that has been activated you kow? It does not constantly check and change your damage type, it changes the base damage type of all of your attacks. TtE is a triggered effect that changes the damage type after Imbued Fires effect happens.

With your interpretation (which requires Imbued Fire to constantly check and change), it would be impossible to resolve Imbued Fire with Irratiated Vats from Pike Industral (changes all damage to Toxic). If global damage type modifers are constant checks, then you create an infinite loop that can't be resolved. In this sense it absolutly cannot work that way.

TtE overrides Imbued fire. Now, if you used TtE to also use fire damage, you would absolutly get the +1 from IF and +1 from TtE. If TtE changes to anything other than fire, you loose the +1 from IF.

13

I'm going to add this to the pending rulings.

14

To clarify, when I say that Imbued Fire is constant effect, I mean it in the sense that it does not have a conditional trigger in order to apply the effect. The effect is triggered only by playing the card, and the effect takes hold. 

Any global damage type modifiers that come into play post Imbued Fire would override it due to order of cards played as the effects are contradictory. So if Close Quarters Combat (all damage to melee) or Irradiated Vat (all damage to Toxic) comes out after Imbued Fire, they take precedence.

Twist the Ether is a very different kind of manipulation than any of those above. Yes, they all change the damage type. But they have very different triggers. Where Imbued Fire's effect is triggered upon it being played, Twist the Ether triggers as a hero is attacking (and it is an optional trigger for the player). There are many official rulings about how to resolve triggered effects. They all that if you have multiple conditional triggers trying to resolve, the newest trigger takes precedence over the old ones. Thats why you can use Bee Bot to destroy End of Days before it burns all of the Heros things. Same principle. Twist the Ether, whos effect has to be triggered (therefor being a newer triggered effect than IF), will override Imbued Fire's damage type restriction. But you can still benefit from the +1 damage from IF as long as you keep using fire damage with TtE

15

So, the interpretation is that the damage type alteration of TtE is always the last on the stack so to speak.  All global effects are applied in play order followed by TtE.

Spiff's rules clarifications for Imbued Fire say:

Both parts of the text on Imbued Fire ("Increase all fire damage by 1.", and "Change the damage type of damage dealt by hero targets to fire.") are ongoing, static buffs.  These things aren't happening in any order because it's not a power or one-shot, so once it's in play, both of the effects are in play simultaneously, which would play out like so:

All fire damage is increased by one, okay.  Change the damage type of damage dealt by heroes to fire.  Now I'm dealing fire damage, but wait, all fire damage is plus one.  So yes, Imbued Fire gives everyone an increased one damage.

(I typed that in and didn't copy-paste so please forgive any errors.)

This implies that those static effects are always in effect.  Otherwise nobody gets a +1 to damage from Imbued Fire for attacks that are changed to fire since the attack wasn't fire when the damage increase went off.

 

16

Ah, you replied while I was replying.  Triggered effects override static ones then.

17

Static effects are triggered, then are static.  When imbued fire is played it triggers, if it could somehow be played during a damage calculation it would take effect.  After that it is a passive change of status that remains without being triggered.

That's why in my damage steps I put check for modifications, because some just hang out.  Imbued Fire can be overwritten because there are contradictory effects, damage can't be fire and toxic, so the latest card wins.  The +1 to fire damage has no contradictory effects, if a card exists in the future that states "No fire damage can be increased" then they would be contradictory and the latest card would win.  That +1 isn't constantly triggering to raise fire damage, because that doesn't work, there would be nothing to stop it from constantly raising the damage by one for infinite damage.

This is very different than a target at 0 or less hp having constant destruction checks.  0HP triggers a destruction effect, and that trigger remains until it is resolved.  The trigger is not static, because it resolves and goes away, but until it is resolved it remains, constantly trying to resolve itself.  Basically fixed point delays the resolution of the trigger as long as it is on the field, and Lady Luck negates the check, which would immediately restart a new one.  There is no resolution to the 0hp destruction check where a 0hp or less target remains in play.  I only bring this up because the rulings seem like they contradict, but they don't.

The static of +1 fire damage, or all damage is fire doesn't need triggered.  It sits there changing things until it is overwritten, then it sits quietly till the overwriting effect is no longer there, and then it will continue doing its thing.  Static effects are very polite like that.  As a triggered effect TtE activates, overwriting the all damage is ___ damage, but not having any effect on all fire damage is +1, it is cool with that effect.  Once the triggered effect is resolved (the damage is dealt) TtE is no longer effecting anything, and the static remains in play as before.

If somehow Imbued fire could enter the field after TtE has been used but before the damage dealt it would override TtE.  I don't think that can happen.

We use the tokens, when all damage is fire we put the token out, if Close Quarters comes out we put an All damage is Melee on top of the fire one.  When close Quarters goes away we remove the all damage melee token.  If Imbued Fire was removed first we'd remove that token and leave the melee one.  It helps keep the order as the game goes on.

18

Quick note on the 0HP thing. The effect of "destruction" is a triggered effect. The condition for that trigger, in the case of a target, is HP reaching or going below 0. Lady Luck and Fixed Point can delay the resolution of that effect, but what makes those situations unique is that the trigger condition for destruction is constantly being met and constantly triggering. You can see how Imbued Fires effect does not continuously trigger in that same way.

Maybe using the phrase "constantly checking" is a poor way to describe what is actually happening with the mechanics. It is much easier to describe these interactions and timing of those interactions using triggers, trigger conditions, and the triggered effect.

19

So the all fire damage part of Imbued Fire is like the cards that reduce all damage by 1 or whatever.  The effects aren't checked constantly.

My brain was seeing the +1 to fire thing wrong.  It's a static +1 to all attacks that happen to be fire whenever they are resolved.  Twist gets to override everything since its applied effect is going off after everything else.  If I was playing Visionary I could use my Twist on say Wraith and let her get her projectile damage bonus even with Imbued Fire in play.

20

Did we ever get an answer on Bee Bot blowing up a explosives wagon in the middle of the wagon exploding?